We play in a youth football league which follows the IHSA rules. We play 10 min. stop clock game. The ref's are saying on a change of possesion you start the clock when the ball is put into play by them not at the snap...Is this right or did we have 3 guys working their fourth game that wanted to get out of there??

I have told you this before, there is no such thing as IHSA rules. The IHSA does not make a rulebook. The National Federation does and that is the rules that the IHSA uses. But they apply to HS sports and HS sports only.

Secondly you are referencing a youth football game. All the timing rules from the NF do not necessarily apply to youth football. They do not use the same rules as it relates to NF rules. I know of many leagues that this was the case (when the clock started) and this would apply to many youth leagues. These games have many rules that have modification in place that are vastly different from NF Rules. A great example of this is the mercy rule (which is not an NF rule in Illinois) that we use in HS. That affects all the timing situations, but when we use them are not the same as youth football.

It sounds like they were right. The only way you are going to know that is to ask the league officials. We will never be able to answer your question, unless someone happens to know what league you work and what their experiences are.

Peace

Mr. Rut
 

below is from TCYFL.org they think there is a ihsa rule book...pg 24 in our rules for tcyfl in northern il. and every ref I have asked has said they should have stopped the clock on out of bound, incomplete pass, and change of pos. So I here ya but I am hearing and reading diff things. jeff


SECTION V. GAME RULES
Part 1 – Basis of Rules
A. IHSA
All play is based on Illinois High School Association (IHSA) Rules and principles. IHSA
Rules are published each year and should be obtained directly by each Member
Community for study, review and dissemination with their organizations.

In all of our local "running-clock" agegroups, we always start the clock on the ready with only one exception - after a timeout. We stop it (briefly) on scores, change of possession, penalties, but start it again when ready.

So after a turnover, stop the clock, make it ready and start the clock. After a penalty - same thing. After a score - stop it until the kickoff, and run it after the kick return is done.

Then again - when you get to the "mercy rule running clock", it runs and runs and runs unless there is a time out or injury. (Sometimes nearly 2 minutes run off after a score - during the try and during the setup for the kickoff)

what do you do on an incomplete pass?

Run it.

Out of bounds ... run it.

First down ... run it.

I have been an IHSA licensed official for almost 10 years and I have never seen an IHSA Rulebook. The test that I take for all sports comes directly from the National Federation of High Schools. It might seem like semantics, but it is a very important distinction. There are rules that the IHSA adheres to, but those are not in the NF Rulebook. And those rules apply to only IHSA Members. The IHSA has no say over what non-IHSA members do. There is also the Illinois Elementary School Association that governs member schools that play games at levels 8th grade and below. They adhere to NF Rules but also modify many of their practices. They give officials all kinds of information as to what those are.

I have worked some Pop Warner and Bill George Leagues in my time as a football official. I also work a Grade School Catholic League on Sundays and there are many rules they use that have nothing to do with IHSA. Timing rules are one of them. The clock in that league does not run to the letter of NF rules. And their mercy rule is totally different as well. I have never seen "stripers" in HS football as I do in youth football.

What I am saying it sounds like the guys know what they are talking about. If they used the NF rules for timing to a tee, the games would take so much longer. Usually the ready for play starts the clock in many leagues I have worked. It is possible that the officials knew exactly what they were talking about. But the problem is also we do not know the rules of the league. They might say they follow the IHSA rules, but then make exceptions as to who can carry the ball, what weight the players are to participate. There is all kind of rules that do not just apply. I know some leagues did not allow a team winning by a certain margin to run outside of the tackles (but never tell the officials how to exactly enforce the rule). It is very possible they know what they were talking about. You have to ask those that run the league, not us. I am just sharing my experiences and what I had to do. Your league could be totally different.


Peace

Guys here is my problem the ref's are not doing all the same thing every ref I have talked to at other tcyfl games and also our first game says...we are a 10 minute stop clock league ...out of bounds stop it, incomplete pass stop it, change of pos stop it....well, please tell me in a il high school game what happens with a change of pos. I am being told that is what should happen at our game. thanks jeff

Maybe they have to get the game done in the allotted time so speeidng up the clock is the only way to complete this. Or maybe they just use modified timing rules which is a great possiblity.

Who keeps the clock?
 

Is there a clock on the field or is there a clock on a scoreboard? And even if that is the case either way, the officials in most youth football that I have seen, the officials keep the clock on the field. Even when there is a clock used on a scoreboard, they screw it up so much that you cannot use it at all.

Let me also state this. Unless you talk to the league's board or rules members, this conversation is not going to go anywhere. It is possible that coaches and other observers do not understand the basic rules of the leagues. I know this because folks in the leagues always try to come up with a rules application that is written no where or that does not apply at all to the league or level in question. Also a lot of youth officials are new and do not understand the differences between NF and youth league ball. It is possible that what you saw was a misapplication of the timing rules. It is also possible that you misunderstood what was taking place if there was no stadium clock used. There are a lot of possibilities. I will say this; I would run the clock whenever possible.

Peace

Why will not anyone answer the question in a IL high school game what does the clock do in a change of pos. They were wrong can't anyone say they blew it!!!

Clock is on the scoreboard and the league's answer is whatever a ref would do in a IL high school game on a change of pos...what is so hard if you are a ref at a high school game in IL what do you do on a change of pos. with the clock stop or not.

You are talking about youth football. What goes on at an IHSA game does not have to apply. It is called Illinois High School Association, not Illinois Youth League Association or IYLA. It is very possible that they were right. The leagues I worked the clock started on the ready, not the snap after a change of possession. I would assume this is the case here. Just a guess, but they might have been right. :rolleyes:

Peace

There's nothing wrong with what they did. Just because the clock starts on the snap in a varsity game, it doesn't mean that it happens that way at lower level games.

In my state, in JV and other lower level games, the clock starts on the ready whistle after a change of possession.

If you have more than one game scheduled on a field, and I was the referee, we would start the clock on the ready, until a superior told me otherwise.

I am being told by league officals the call would be whatever the call would be in a IL high school game and what might that be?????

Guess what.....
 

I am starting the clock on the ready as well. I am not running a full game clock in a youth football game. And if the league has a problem with that, they can find someone else to work the league. I am not there to play a full 2 hour game because you want to. The officials are working multiple games and I am not going to run 10 minute quarters with a regular clock. You might find that wrong, but that is why I do not work any of these leagues anymore. You spend more time worried about little things and do not know the major rules that really matter. I am running the damn clock.

There is your answer.

Peace

and you do this in high school also????

Thanks Bush for your honesty..

You asked for it......you got it......TOYOTA!!!
 

No, but this is not HS. When in Rome you do as the Romans do. When outside of Rome, I do what I think will move the game along.

And in many lower level HS games, we do all kind of things that are not in the rules (like not punting). The coaches want to move the games along and so do we.

Peace

JeffB, youth football usually has a modification of the NFHS clock rules. In the youth games I officiate, we use a "running clock" meaning the only time the clock stops is on a team time out. Then inside of the last 2 minutes of each half, we use NFHS clock rules meaning the clock stops on incomplete passes, out of bounds, team time outs, change of possession, and to move the chains. Hope this helps.

You are right.
 

This is exactly why I never agreed with him. There are so many different rules differences for youth football. I cannot believe official would stand for working football games with a normal clock. At least the ones that know better. ;)

Peace

Any action at the end of the previously play which causes the clock to stop; the clock starts on the snap.

time out
change of quarter
change of possession
out of bounds
incomplete pass
inadvertant whistle?
runs, or passes that end in the end zone (TD, TB or Safety)
delay of game penalty

or refer to Rule 3-6-3 in the NFHS rule book

NF (High School) rules: The clock will start on the SNAP after 1] Legal kick
2] Charged time out
3] If team B is awarded a new series
4] After a delay of game penalty

I do not have my rule book with me to refer to and there are some other instances that should be added to the list above, but these are the main ones. Hope this answers your question. Also if the Referee invokes rule 3-6-3, he could start the clock on either the ready or the snap.

We try to use the same rules as high school in our youth leagues. The clock would start on the snap. The games move along fairly fast due to limited passing. We would be more likely to rule a player was downed or momentum was stopped in-bounds and keep the clock running that way.

In our youth leagues- we have some agegroups that use modified clock rules, and others that use NCAA clock rules. The older they get, the more "normal" the rules become... but even with "Normal" rules, we have a much shorter clock - usually 6-minute quarters. I think it's odd that Rut would tell me that I "don't know what I'm doing" if I call the game the way the league asks me to... but I guess that's just me.

What are you talking about?
 

I have not addressed you in this post once. I have not told you anything. I was only addressing jeffb only and his claim that the officials did not follow the rules of the league. I do not even know what you are talking about.

Peace

No, you didn't refer to me directly... I was referring to this statement of yours:

"I cannot believe official would stand for working football games with a normal clock. At least the ones that know better."

If my league says to run a normal clock ... who the hell am I to just do whatever the heck I want, and why would you say that if I do such a thing, I "don't know better"?

Not meaning to attack you here, or cause this thread to fly right off the deep end --- but that statement kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

Where is the handbook?
 

I guess you need to get out more often. ;)

I know I am not going to work youth football games (3 and 4 games in a row in most cases) and I am going to run a normal clock. Then I am going to get paid what I would for a regular HS game. These leagues never pay the same amount for one game in my area as they would for a HS game, where you are suppose to use timing rules as the NF intended them.

This guy has not given us the handbook in which the league goes by. Of course as a basis they are going to use NF rules. The kids will play under those rules. But I would bet all my checks for the season there are weight requirements, eligibility rules (who can carry the ball or not), whether coaches can or cannot be on the field and the issue at hand, what the timing rules apply. They never just take on all HS rules. I would bet that they do not play 12:00 minute quarters and do not have 20 minute sportsmanship meetings as required by the IHSA.

This guy just wanted to get someone to agree with him, without asking the proper people that run the league or look at the league handbook to cover all the "league rules" that apply to that league and that league only.

If that upsets you, I guess you will just have to be that way. :rolleyes:

Peace

I agree that he was just looking to get someone to give the answer he liked so he could print it off and go complain.

My point was that if you are going to work a game for someone, you do it by their rules or you don't work it. This doesn't make those of us who choose (as you don't) to work these games somehow less than you or others who don't choose to work these games. If you don't like their rules ... don't work. Not a big deal. But don't belittle those who do.

I do admit there are a lot of people working these games that do so solely for the money (and some of these guys really suck, and don't care that they suck). However, there are also a good number who are young and trying to get better at their craft. And there are those who are already very good at their job that simply like being there for the kids and their local leagues.

We should be on the same team guys...
 

If you choose to officiate the best game ever invented, it should be for teaching, learning, and to be involved in the magical environment of the fall football contest, whether it be Pop Warner, or NFL.

Jayseef

1st of all I will not print this and go show someone the answer...the league is telling us the clock should go Exactly like a IL high varsity game and that was all I was trying to get an answer for. I have played the game all the way to the pro level and just wanted to get the answer before the next game.jeff

I did not belittle anyone. If you feel that way, so be it. But I know the league does not use "IHSA" timing rules. They would not get any official to work it if they did. Not because I say so, they would not pay enough.

What does that have to do with any post I made? I think you are a little sensitive about what I said. I am only talking about he timing rules and how they are applied to youth football (which is in my area) and why officials work and do not work these leagues. I do not know many officials that would use all the timing rules applied for $25 a game. Then work 4 games in a row that adhere to all those timing rules. It is not about the money. But I would also assume that many of those officials work a game on the other days of the week. That would be a major problem to find officials that could walk if that was the case.

Peace

Sorry. I forgot that I was not allowed to add a comment that might not have something to do with one of your posts.

What is the name of the league?
 

What is the name of the league?

Who is the person you talked to (league position, not actual name)?

Name the officials that worked that game?

I have worked games from Mundelein and Crystal Lake, to Tinley Park and Hillcrest. I have worked Pop Warner and Bill George Leagues. I have also worked other Youth Leagues that are not directly affiliated with any special league. I have never known a league that has told the officials to use timing rules to the letter of HS varsity rules. Now are you saying that the slaughter rule is used that the IHSA uses as well? That is a timing rule. Are you telling me that they play 12 minute quarters as well? Because that sounds vague unless you adhere to all those rules.

You could give me all this information and it still is not going to solve your problem. Unless there is someone that works the league or is familiar as to what the officials are told in that league, no definitive answer can be given. Someone gave you the situations the clock should be started and should be stopped and if that is not good enough, the NF produces rulebooks that we all can purchase. But I will guarantee, there are several exception that you league adheres to. I have had coaches in league like this tell me rules that did not even apply to the league at all or in the league handbook. Most leagues always adhere to NF rules, but state the many things that apply to the eligibility of players and who can do what and who cannot do certain things. And it is not uncommon that the officials are not told about all these exceptions and usually are never given the handbook to see the enforcements that apply.

Peace

You can say whatever you feel. But you are the one that got offended by something that had nothing to do with your claim. If you do not want a comment back, why make one in the first place. ;)

Peace

What league?
 

I am still waiting for you to name one league in my area that adheres to <b><u>ALL NF TIMING RULES.</b></u>

Peace

Man I hope my kids don't get Rut as their ref...oh wait I am sure we do not pay enough for his EXPERTISE.../

Wonderful discussion.
 

My point exactly.

The bottom line is we can debate, go back and forth about this issue all day. Unless anyone here is sitting on the league committee or has the handbook or the league rules in their possession, this is just a hollow discussion. He can go back and take anything we say, but none of us here have any credibility with that league. Our word means nothing if we do not work the league. We also do not know what the officials were told either. It is possible they were told to run the clock on the ready. It is possible they assumed that is the way the clock was suppose to be operated. It is also possible that the person he talked to "assumed" that was the timing applied, but does not understand the ramifications of that kind of choice. It is also possible that no one ever made an issue of this. We can assume all kind of things, but what anyone says here means nothing. Jeffb can go right to the individuals and throw this in their face and they could dismiss it like an ant on the street. This is just an interesting conversation as to what we think might apply without knowing all the "players" that run the league or who assign the officials.


Peace

OK finally got through to the league offical who did not want to be named and confirmed we play 10 min stop clock and we defintely stop the clock on all change of pos. As he said just now we play just like the IL high varsity does.

You said they started it on the ready. I thought that was your beef? Not whether the clock stopped on the change of possession.

Peace

None taken.

Everyone knows the clock stops on a change of possession. I thought you wanted to know when the clock restarted?

"We play in a youth football league which follows the IHSA rules. We play 10 min. stop clock game. <u>The ref's are saying on a change of possesion you start the clock when the ball is put into play by them not at the snap</u>...Is this right or did we have 3 guys working their fourth game that wanted to get out of there??</b>

This was his question word for word.

I am not sure what he wanted now. :rolleyes:

Peace

Per NF rule, the clock starts on the snap after a change of possession.

But those officials who have said that many youth leagues have modifications to timing rules (amongst other things) are correct. Seems each youth league determines their own modifications and expects the officials to keep them all straight. I work three different youth leagues in my area with three different sets of modifications to the standard NF rules.

If there is no modification to the timingf rule by the league then the official(s) either blew the rule or wanted the game to end early.

Jeff,

You should come work down here in my area. (I know you aren't interested, just thought i'd share). Most of the youth leagues in this area pay either the equivalent of what we'd make for a JV game ($40 a game) and SOME pay the equivalent of what we would make for a varsity game ($50 a game).

The only difference is that we usually work 3-man crews (which isn't all that much different than some of the Freshman and JV games we work). We have 1 youth league in my area that pays for a 4-man crew for the Jr High games.



[Edited by mikesears on Sep 10th, 2004 at 08:20 AM]

Round here, PeeWee is $40, cash. JV and under is mandatory $25, although many pay $30 and a few pay $35 (1 pays $35 for 1st game, $25 for additional games).

3 weeks of 6-games on Saturday, and I've got a new fridge! :) Plus usually a chance to work on mechanics, get input from more experienced guys, and help the brand-new guys learn as well.

They pay that here.
 

They pay that much and more at many leagues up here. Depending on the League, guys can make well over a $100 a night or in an afternoon on a Saturday or Sunday. Usually guys work about 4 or 5 games, depending on the structure of the league. I work a league now that we get $75 for only working two games with a fraction of the time as a varsity doubleheader. This league is a bunch of Catholic schools that play on Sundays. I work with the same guys every week and we have a good time. There is a league if I wanted to up north where I could make $40-45 on Saturdays, but I work varsity football those days. And I never have to drive. This is also one of the reasons that many younger officials do not work HS ball on Saturday, because the money is larger with these kid leagues.

Peace

I guess part of the difference here is that 90% of the HS games are on Fridays. Not very many on Saturday, and those that are usually pay like JV (varsity pay here is based on attendance - MOST of these Saturday games are very small schools without their own facilities that play at the "real" stadiums whenever they can get them available - but attendance is negligible).

So we work Varsity on Friday nights and Peewee on Saturdays. I'm actually disappointed when I get a Saturday varsity game - even a JV/V doubleheader - $75-80 for 4 hours of work (and often another hour and a half driving), or $240 cash for 8 hours (5-15 minute drive).

The reason there are Saturday games, a lot of schools do not have lights. So they have to play in the morning/afternoon in order to have a game in the first place. Now there are more schools that are getting lights and the need for Saturday games are not as common. A lot of schools live in communities where the house owners do not want lights near their property. I have a varsity game at a school that will have lights for the first time. I even lost a Saturday game this year to a school that put in lights and moved the game to Friday.

I will admit that I really hate a lot of Pee Wee games. I even stopped doing them for a few years all together, because there were officials that did not want to call the game properly. And coaches were always trying to tell you how the rules were laid out based on some NFL game they saw. The money can be good, but with all the hassle, I would rather watch football on TV then work a league where the officials are not treated with a certain amount of respect. I also feel that many of the Pee Wee coaches are not as accountable for their actions as they are in HS sports. If I eject a coach from a game, he has to answer to the Principal and the AD for his actions. I deal with a Pee Wee Coach, the League President might make excuses for him because that is his brother. I would rather plunk hair off my head for fun.

Peace

We have those kind of leagues around here, too. I won't work them. But I have found youth leagues that are actually fun to work.

I agree. But leagues are like finding a good woman. It might take you awhile to find the right one that works for you.

I right now work a league that allows me to work with a crew. Everyone on the crew have playoff experience. We used one guy last year that was brand new, but he got to work with just us all year. And it was 4 man. The only problem I have this year with the league is they will not allow us to have 4 officials. So the newer guy is not working with us. But he does have a kid playing a sport on that day so it is not tragic for him. Not sure we will work it next year. We will just have to see how this year goes.

Peace

What - you mean the high school and junior high coaches in your area don't do the same??? :)

I see your point about accountability - that CAN be more of a factor in peewee.