Backwards Pass or Fumble

svm1010 · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 07, 2004, 12:40pm

I was in a talking with some fellow officals about the procedure on a muffed snap the other day and wanted to get some additional interpretations.

Situation: QB under center, the legal snap is muffed. A) QB immediately falls on and recovers the ball, or B) ball is recoverd by A (not QB), or C) ball is recovered by B

The question is:
Backwards Pass or Fumble?
Bag the spot of the loss of player possesion or not?
If you bag, why?

Uncle Ernie · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 07, 2004, 12:48pm

NFHS or NCAA?

Theisey · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 07, 2004, 12:59pm

It is considered a backward pass. No requirement to bag in either code.

I'll tell you what happened in a NF varsity game just two years ago.. the QB muffed the snap. Mr R tossed, yes tossed the bag right at the spot from about 10 yards back. Hit the ball with the bag and deflected the ball right into the defensive player.
I bet he couldn't have done that again in a 1000 tries, but the point was he did not need to bag this spot not to mention tossing the bag from such a distance. His actions cleary affected the outcome of the muffed snap.

Uncle Ernie · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 07, 2004, 01:35pm

Understand the no bag philosophy.

However, the NCAA book states that if the ball slips during the snap it is a backward pass or something close to that.

In NFHS is there such a rule? If not, since the snap could be handed, does that infer the snapper has possession and then lost possession making it a fumble?

I understand were talking semantics here, but some clarification would be nice.

UE

svm1010 · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 07, 2004, 03:07pm

the inital conversation was NFHS but NCAA in an interesting spin.

Derock2004 · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 07, 2004, 03:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by svm1010

The question is:
Backwards Pass or Fumble?

Backwards Pass.

Quote:

Bag the spot of the loss of player possesion or not?
If you bag, why?

There is no player possession here. Quarterback muffed the snap

Jim S · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 07, 2004, 05:21pm

Note the defintion of a snap in Rule 2.38 Art.1 "A snap is the legal act of passing or handing the ball backward from the position on the ground"
Also the definition of a loose ball play in 9.3.1c.
It say: "A backwards pass (including the snap)......"
That answer the question?

READ RULE 2, READ RULE 2, READ RULE 2, READ RULE 2

svm1010 · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 08, 2004, 01:24pm

I have read Rule 2 throughly.

2-19-1 "Handing the ball is transferring player posession from one player to a teammate in such a way that the ball is still in contact with the first player when it is touched by the teammate."

2-29-1 "Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a pass, the ball travels in flight."

in an "under the center" snap, the ball would more than likely touch the QB's hands before the snapper has released the ball. If this is the case then we have handing, not passing. According to the handing definition we should have a fumble.

BTW the loose ball play is defined in 10-3-1c and if that's the case then all plays begin as loose ball plays and ALL snaps are backwards passes.

With that being said, why do they include the "Handing" wording in the definition of a snap?

Derock2004 · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 08, 2004, 04:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by svm1010
I have read Rule 2 throughly.

2-19-1 "Handing the ball is transferring player posession from one player to a teammate in such a way that the ball is still in contact with the first player when it is touched by the teammate."

2-29-1 "Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a pass, the ball travels in flight."

in an "under the center" snap, the ball would more than likely touch the QB's hands before the snapper has released the ball. If this is the case then we have handing, not passing. According to the handing definition we should have a fumble.

BTW the loose ball play is defined in 10-3-1c and if that's the case then all plays begin as loose ball plays and ALL snaps are backwards passes.

With that being said, why do they include the "Handing" wording in the definition of a snap?

Handing and Passing...
In an "under the center" snap the ball is being snapped or handed directly to the QB. In a "long snap formation" the ball is being passed backwards to the QB. All plays begin with a legal snap which means the center must hand OR pass the ball backwards AND release the ball. In both situations, handing AND passing, if the QB touches but never possess the ball you have a Muff. If the QB possess and then lose the ball you have a Fumble.

James Neil · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 09, 2004, 02:37pm

might we not have a snap infraction ?

BTW Drock ...It looks like you've been spending some time actually reading the "Book" . Good for you . and BTW a down can start with a Free Kick also.