On an incidental facemask penalty I know it is tacked on to the end of the run but my question is if the penalty yards are not enough for a first down do you still repeat the down? I've been seeing it both ways and now I'm confused.

When a penalty is accepted, unless it is one where there is an automatic first down awarded or it includes a loss of down, you will always repeat the down unless the line to gain has been reached.

Assuming we're talking about NFHS, high school rules...

5 yards are added to the end of the run (if the foul was by the defense).

The down is not repeated... if the foul happens on 2nd down, it will be 3rd down after the pentaly is applied if the ball is still not past the line to gain.

There is never an automatic first down.

-SW---

You might want to read up on your rules a little better.

Also my response was an all-inclusive response covering all penalties, not just the one mentioned.

The acceptance of this team-B foul will allow team-A to repeat the down unless of course the extra yardage gives team-A a first down.
There isn't any team-B live ball foul that would prevent that.

USC? :D

Warren, you have me confused. I am in agreeance with SW post. This is a live ball foul against the defense for incidental face mask. The enforcement is 5 yards added to the "end of the run". The way this appears to me is the Offense keeps the run/down, gets 5 yards added on the end of the run, AND they get the down over??? That doesn't sound correct to me. Now if the penalty results in a first down then they get the first down but I don't think they get the down, additional yardage, and the down over. Maybe you need to read up on your rules a little better or please correct me if I'm wrong.

Derock , you never fail to amaze me. You are wrong and stand corrected. After all this time you still don’t have a clue. This foul is enforced using the “All But One” principal and the down will be repeated unless the line to gain has been reached after enforcement. Come on you guys. This is fundamental stuff that should be known to all competent officials.

Sean, are you a Football Official ? And what do you mean "There is never an automatic first down" ?
How about roughing the passer, or snapper or holder, or kicker.

Mr Neil, he is not talking about roughing. His response was dealing with incidental face mask! I'm sure what he meant was there is never an automatic first down on an incidental face mask penalty. The enforced yardage could result in a first down but never an anutomatic first down.

Repeat the down, this is a basic fundamental like James Neil said. Incidental facemask is neither loss of down or automatic first down and since the penalty is a liveball foul you must repeat the down unless the first down is reached.

So let's say it is 4th and 10. Running back gets 3 yards and is prevented gaining further yards by an incidental facemask. The 5 yards tacked onto the end of the run would still be short of the LTG. Then we'd have a turnover on downs. How fair is that? Use logic: the down must be repeated otherwise we'd have chaos!

To DeRock
 

NFHS, Rule 5-2-2 (truncated to highlight relevant portions):
When a foul occurs during a scrimmage down. . . . The number of the next down is the same of that of the down during which the foul occured unless penalty acceptance includes a first down or loss of down, or enforcement or the advance results in a first down.

Looks like a foul by B will that results in extra yardage, but not a first down, would still be a replay of the down.

-Craig

An incidental facemask penalty is not always "tacked on" to the end of the run--it is enforced under the all but one principle. If before a pass, B incidentally grasps an A player's facemask the basic spot is the previous spot, and then penalty is enforced from there.

As already mentioned, 5-2-2 says that the the next down will be the same in number as down in which the foul occured (unless is LOD foul, an automatic first down, or enforcement of the penalty results in a first down).

Wow.

Just wow.

No offense guys, and we were all new once... but how do you get out of the very first rules clinic without having at least this down pat and ingrained in your brain. That's just about the first rule you learn on penalty enforcement ... before even learning which fouls are 5, 10, and 15 yards.

Um, yes they do. Read rule 2. Then read it again about 40 times. This is BASIC stuff.

That way you'd know that the only reason they get the yardage "tacked" on is because the basic spot on a running play is the end of the associated run. The down still repeats, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER FOUL (excepting the automatic first downs, of course) unless the line-to-gain is reached.

The reason penalties are misapplied is that people don't understand terms like "basic spot," "all-but-one," "running play," and "loose-ball play."

I agree, and it isn't even that hard! At first t was kind of confusing but if you put some time in it and read it carefully you can very easily understand those terms and understand basic penalty enforcement. :)

ease up guys!
 

I had trouble grasping this concept this year. As a first year white hat, when I started enforcing penalties it didn't seem right that A could get yardage gained + penalty yardage, not have a 1st down and THEN replay the down. As I enforce it more and more, and spend some time in my rule book, case book and comic book, I finally understand it.

I never thought about this principle before b/c my white hat just told me where to put the ball without any explanation. But now, I got it...

I think part of the problem is that officials sometimes listen to announcers. Announcers use words like, "Tacked onto" to describe what is happening to the viewers.

I fully agree with those who say to repeat the down after a facemask penalty. I don't believe ANY league tacks on the yardage and counts the down. (Could be wrong about NFL on this one).

If we would quit refering to a facemask foul as a "tack-on" penalty, we might discourage people from wanting to count the down. The rulebook does not contain these words and they only serve to confuse newer officials.

If there is foul by the defense, the down is ALWAYS replayed unless an automatic first down is awarded as part of the penalty or unless the line-to-gain is reached after enforcement.


[Edited by mikesears on Sep 7th, 2004 at 12:56 PM]

I believe that the NFL does tack on the yardage, but count the down... That's likely where all of the confusion is coming from...

Nope. Not in the NFL either.

I believe I am the cause of all this confusion and to be honest I'm still confused but don't bother trying to further explain. The posts that have already been made seem clear enough I just have to go back and study this rule to try and better understand. Thanks for all of your input.

I think I will stand by my original post on this topic.

The rules are a little different for dead-ball, non-player and unsportsmanlike penalties but we were talking about a live-ball foul. REPEAT THE DOWN.

Of course you all are right about repeating the down. 5-2-2 is clear on that point. My only defense is that my brain was malfunctioning and I couldn't find the rule reference.

"5 yards are added to the end of the run (if the foul was by the defense)" was assuming that the foul was behind the basic spot.

Wow... I really read a lot in to that original post, didn't I?

"There is never an automatic first down"... for incidental face mask fouls, if that makes it clearer.

I guess I shouldn't be posting here after long days and a lack of sleep (he says after an 18 hour day, running on 4 hours sleep).

-SW---

I agree--the phrase "tacked on" only causes problems.

The only time I heard an official use "tacked on" in a 'major' game was in an NCAA Division I game with a roughing the passer call. There was a pass that was caught followed by a short run by the receiver before he was tackled. There was also a roughing call on the play. The referee said the 15 yards were "tacked on" to the end of the run. I suppose roughing the passer is the only time you could argue that saying "tacked on" is justified.