The Official Forum - Penalty following change of possession

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Re: I'm trying to help

Quote:

Originally posted by KWH

Quote:

Originally posted by PiggSkin
KWH: Is there a case book play or something that you can point me to..?

The last sentence of the previously mentioned 5-3-1 is this:
The line to gain then remains fixed until the series ends and a new line to gain is established.

Following that, I don't see how we can "un-establish" the LTG, simply because a timeout was called...

Can you elaborate..?

Sure.
There are four "examples" of 5-3-1 in the 2004 Simplified and Illustrated Manual on pages 46, 47 & 48.
I realize these Case plays do not cover your specific example.
The intent of the rule is the only time a team can start a new series with a Line-to-Gain greater ten is when a dead-ball foul occurs during a time when all three of the below actions are happening:
a) After the ready for play,
b) While the 25 second clock is running, AND
c) Prior to the snap.
If you do not have all three of the above you shall move the chains after enforcement to make the new series 1st and 10.
If you do have all three of the above the new series may start with a Line-to-gain greater than 10.

I will keep searching for more background on this for you.

KWH,
what do we have in this situation. 1st and 10 for A at B 25 yd line. RFP happens, false start by A, move the ball to the 30 1st and 15, RFP again, before the 25 second clock runs out we get a time out...during the time out there is an USC on coach from A...are you telling me it it will now be 1st and 10 from the B 45?? I think that once the RFP is blown the first time, and subsequent USC should not move the LTG... The wording in 5-3-1 specifically says subsequent which to me means that once an RFP is blown, the LTG is established...the timeout does not cancel the RFP...the ball was made ready for play any penalty now does not move the line to gain.

Ok, I submitted this to our State Interpretor. He finally e-mailed back that it was the point of some long discussion. They have sent the specific question back to the NFHS for a ruling but they determined the same as I.
Purpose of the rule:
The rule was placed to prevent a team from having the 1 & long primarially after a change of possession, but it also works for any awarded new series.
The rule is designed to make a foul that was related to action included in the prior play not result in a long LTG in the new series. Continuation if you will.
Effect of the RFP:
The use of the RFP is the indicated starting point of the new series. Once any RFP has sounded we have started the new series and the LTG is 'permentally' established. The T.O. call does not take away the fact that the RFP has sounded and fullfilled the requirement of the rule. ANY foul after the RFP has sounded can result in a 1st and longer than 10.
So coaches, if you want to be an ***, do it before the RFP sounds. You can't buy off a USL penalty off with a T.O.

After further review...

Jim S is correct.
I have discussed this at length with some of the top guys in our state and we came to the same conclusion.
RFP is the key.
Please disregard my previous posts and please accept my apologies regarding the 25 second clock as I was incorrect. 
Common sense prevails. A coach is never be able to buy his way into a 1st and 10.

FYI - I will submit a sample play of this to the NFHS (via a member of the editorial committee) for consideration of listing it as a CASE PLAY in next years CASE BOOK.

[Edited by KWH on Sep 1st, 2004 at 12:30 PM]

Quote:

Originally posted by jimmiececil
B24 intercepts A's pass and during the return the covering official blows an inadvertent whistle. B24 was at A's 9 yard line when the whistle sounded. The box is set and just prior to the ready for play, B's coach requests and is granted a time out. B's coach is irate, feeling that a sure touchdown has just been taken away and he sounds off at the official who had the inadvertent whistle. He is subsequently flagged for an unsportsmanlike conduct. After marking the penalty, are the chains reset or is it 1st and G at the 24 yard line?

According to what we have been told, it should be 1 and 10 from the 24, but I think this gives the team penalized an advantage. What does everyone else think?

I've actually heard some discussion that leaves it debateable. No consistency exists because there is a possibility of a delay between when the sticks are set and the whistle to signal RFP. My belief is that the RFP whistle is the point where the penalty application changes.

Therefore, I believe that 1D/10 @ 24 is the proper call.

I will ignore Canada as they can't even get their field size correct.. 8-P

So for those lost it will be 1st and 25 if the ready for play was blown and then the flag thrown.

If the RFP was not blown then it will be 1st and 10 from the 24 or whatever yard line 15 yards back take it to.

Of course keep in mind that you may have to explain to the other coach how it is 1st and 10 still if the RFP had not been blown and the chains were set.