HAd this play last week and I want to confirm myself.

4th and 4 @ k24. k punts ball. R-83 muffs kick @ r42, and K recovers at r43. 1/10 for K. Clock on ready or snap?

I did it on ready since the kick never ended with muff, K reached the line to gain, just a normal 1st down, ball inbounds.

If I am incorrect, please elaborate why.

Thanks!

Legal kick... on the snap.

NF Rules
 

3-4-3c

"Either team is awared a new series following a legal kick."

First of all, the kick did end.

NCAA rules say the clock starts on the snap after any legal kick. No exceptions.
NF rules say the clock starts on the snap after a scrimmage kick when a new series is awarded to either team.
That's just what happened here.

Just to make sure I understand the "exception" (which isn't really an exception to the rule ... just an exception to the rule of thumb that the clock would start on the snap after EVERY legal kick...)

Team A, 3rd and 30 from it's own inch line quick-kicks. The kick is muffed and recovered by A on the 25. 4th and 5 from the 25 for Team A - clock starts on the ready, right? (NF, of course - NCAA it would start on the snap).

Did anything change?
 

mcrowder,

All that changed in your scenario was the down. You still have a legal kick. You still have possession after that legal kick. The rule does not make a distinction to what down it is. I will look in the casebook to be sure. But you still start the clock on the snap.

Peace

Just want to clarify your situation. Do you mean the "snap" was muffed and the ball was recovered by A behind the LOS? Any legal kick that crosses the LOS and is first touched by R (muffed?) will result in a new series of downs to the team in possession at the end of the down regardless of where the ball is recovered.

Did that not also change the "awarded a new series" part? I'm not an NF guy, which is why I'm trying to clarify.

Canadian Ruling
 

Outside of the 3-minute warning, the clock will start ont eh ready for play.

Inside the 3-minute warning, the clock will start on the snap. (1.5.1g)

In Fed rules, this is still a first down for A, even though the recovery is not beyond the line to gain...

Doesn't the kick end on a muff? I think the clock should start on the snap because of change of possession.

A kick ends when a team gains possession of it or it becomes dead. A muff does not end a kick.

A kick remains a kick until it is posessed or become dead by rule. See the Fundamental Statements section in the Rule Book.

Re: Did anything change?
 

Incorrect Rut. The rule says to start on the snap when a new series is awarded after a legal kick. Otherwise we start on the ready. Here we do not have a new series. Start on the ready.

Re: Re: Did anything change?
 

Incorrect Rut. The rule says to start on the snap when a new series is awarded after a legal kick. Otherwise we start on the ready. Here we do not have a new series. Start on the ready. [/B][/QUOTE]

I respectfully disagree. Paraphrasing from the Fundamental Statements section of the Rule Book, "If R touches a scrimmage kick beyond the LOS, it will be a 1st down for the team in posession when the down ends." K/A is awarded a new series, therefore start on the snap since the previous play was a legal kick.

Anytime a team gets a 1st down, they are awarded a new series (of 4 downs).

[Edited by jack015 on Aug 24th, 2004 at 12:32 PM]

Re: Re: Did anything change?
 

Reference the preceding posts: We do have a new series. Remember this little "rule of thumb": Whenever a scrimmage kick is muffed by R, the next down to be 1st for whoever recovers.

Agree that we have a new series in this case. I was pointing out that Rut made a blanket statement that "You still have possession after that legal kick. The rule does not make a distinction to what down it is".
This is incorrect.

Gotcha!
 

OK I see what you're getting at. If K had punted on 3rd down and the ball came back behind the LOS untouched and K recovered and was downed behind the LTG, the next down would be 4th and we would start on the ready. OK, now the question is, should the clock stop at all in this scenario?
I can't find any reason to have stopped the clock in the first place :)

Jonathan


[Edited by jransom on Aug 24th, 2004 at 01:30 PM]

We discussed this in our association meeting last night.

My notes read: "On any non-kick down, if there is a turnover and A ends up with the ball, stop the clock to reset the chains, but then wind the clock on the ready. It is the opposite on scrimmage kicks. The clock starts on the snap following all kick downs. If K keeps possession at the end of a kicking down, but is not awarded a new series, the clock should not be stopped at all."

On a new series awarded to either team on a legal kick, the clock starts on the snap is what I have written down.

REPLY: No. I'm assuming that by the way you worded the play, you're saying that A muffed the ball and then recovered on A's 25. If so, it will become B's ball due to the first (illegal) touching. That would be a new series for B. Again start on the snap. In this case it could never be K's ball for a fourth down.

Re: Gotcha!
 

That is correct. No reason to stop the clock in a lot of cases. The problem is that lot of the time it is. Don't make a big thing out of it on the field (save it for the bar afterwards. Just start on the RFP, unless it makes some kind of big difference ie: the clock would have run out.
Somerimes it is because of fouls, etc. that make the RFP the proper place to start it again.