I asked a question in the previous thread on this topic but it is at the bottom of page three and the discussion is well into page four and I am afraid it will be lost, so I am posting here as a new thread. The specific question was for cowboyfan1, but I am interested in how any Referee who says they would never overrule another official would handle a situation where a call was made that had no enforcement or signal, and the calling official would not back down.

Here is the pertinent part of cowbyfan1's post:
<b>
I also worked as a White hat in a varisty game last year. The head coach of team A kept yelling his receivers were being bumped more than 5 yards down field. Next play my LJ throws a flag. I asked him what he had and he told me the defender bumped the receiver more than 5 yards down field. I preceeded to tell him that is an NFL rule, not High school. I then asked him if the defender held the reciever. He said no. I asked him if when the bump happened was the pas in the air. He said no. I then asked him if the bump kept the reciever from getting downfield at all. He said no. I then asked him then you think I should wave off the flag and he said yes. Again I did not overrule him tho I knew he was wrong. </b>

Here is my question for him:
<b>
If I understand you correctly, if he had said "No, you should not wave off the flag.", you would not have waved it off. How many yards would the umpire have marked off? What signal would you have given? What would your explanation to the offensive coach have been if he had questioned the call?
</b>

Since the pass was not in the air the only foul here could be holding for contacting a receiver who was no longer a potential blocker.
However if he said yes, your next question would be "For what foul?"
Actually the better response after he said no to your questions about what happened would be to say, "Then we really DON'T have a foul here, do we?"

You would not be overruling him at this point. He has told you that there was no foul that fits the rules and the situation, and that he has incorrectly applied the rules. As the referee it is your job then to get the correct call. Wipe it off. Discuss it later.

Technically, contacting the receiver is illegal use of hands, but the holding signal is given, and it is a 10 yard penalty. As for the "overruling" issue, I agree with Jim S.

I agree with Jim as well. But I would not call that over ruling your partner, you are just taking them to the right conclusion. They throw the flag because something did take place. There are other factors which might affect the final decision. There is a difference between defensive holding and DPI.

Peace

When I did my first game, the WH told me to only throw a flag if I saw something and he didn't want me coming to him because "something didn't look right". If you don't know what the exact penatly is, then you probably shouldn't throw a flag.

You are indeed correct. I was reading the wrong letter in the penalty. c. instead of d.
Of course we changed to the holding signal fairly recently.. when the ilegal block to the back took over the illegal use of hands signal.

Lets change the scenario
 

5 man crew, 15 seconds to go in the game. B leads 21 to 17. A has the ball on B1, 4th and goal. They run a QB sneak, and the QB is stacked up at the goal line and pushed back. R, U, and BJ cannot tell whether he scored. L goes up with the TD signal but LJ signals him down short of the goal. You are the R so you huddle with the crew. Now remember that neither you, the U, or the BJ have anything to offer as to whether the QB scored. Both your endmen are adamant that their call is correct and neither will back down. How do you resolve this without overruling one or the other?

Simple...just walk over to the instant replay and get under the hood. :-)

On a serious note, the R needs to probe and ask more questions to see if one of the wings was potentially screened on the play. It's R's job to look for where there could have been doubt somewhere; at least I think so.

If at the end all things are equal you have to make a call then I'd probably go with the official who was closer to the runner. I'm not sure what else you could do. If the player was in the middle of the field I'd probably go TD.

Seasoned Referees...anything different???

Your input would be greatly appreciated especially since I'm moving to the R position this coming season.

I'd throw a flag and call two live ball fouls; one on defense one on offense.

But all kidding aside, what you have is bad mechanics. If either Ref sees the other guy signal touchdown, there is no debate. You have a T-Down.. Both need to signal.

Had a similar situation in my first WH year. You should listen to both officials version of what they saw and base your decision on what you feel is the correct call. Somebody is not going to be happy with whatever you call.

One thing I cover constantly in pregame when within 5-yards of the goal line go immediately to the goal line and straddle the line. If the ball comes close DO NOT signal immediately. First look to your partner on the other side of the line and keep moving toward the spot. If you are sure the ball crossed tell him "I got a TD" if you are unsure, "Is it a TD?" Only after confirmation of a touchdown should the signal go up.

With experience you learn to withhold signals. As a R it is so much easier to explain why the runner did not cross than to explain why the signal by an official was not correct.

Ok, either the facts haven't all come out, one of the wings was out of position, or one of them is mistaken/lying about what he saw - it's highly unlikely that they could BOTH see the ball. Here's what I would do:

(1) Ask both wings if they were right on the goal line. Parallax will kill you on this call otherwise. If one is out of position, go with the other guy.

(2) Ask the HL if he definitely saw the ball cross the plane before any whistle. If he says no, problem solved - down at the 1cm line. We'll need to talk later about giving TD signals without seeing the ball.

(3) Ask the LJ if he's actually got the runner DOWN or if it's just a progress stop. If it's a progress stop, I've got a TD.

(4) If the LJ has the runner DOWN, ask if he could see the ball for THE ENTIRE TIME BEFORE the knee or other body part hit. If no, I've got a TD. If yes, then I must rule that the runner was down before the ball broke the plane. Down at the 1cm mark, 1/10 for B.

(5) In any event, break out the ponchos and hip boots, because no matter what you call the feces is about to collide with the rotary ventilator.

wow...
 

thanks for the answer. It is nice to read a clear, concise, lgoical answer once in a while.

You should never mirror a fellow official if you do not see the play. The first official might be wrong. You do not want be wrong with him.

Re: Lets change the scenario
 

First of all, you cannot overrule anyone if no decision has been made. Both officials made a signal, but you cannot have both. Someone was not supposed to signal at all. So this is not an "overrule" when someone had a brain fart and did something they were not suppose to.

I have had this happen as a Referee. You use common sense than talk to both officials. Usually you stick with the official's call that had the ball come to their side. If someone is blocked off you might give the call to the other side. The bottom line is that there is no good that can come out of conflicting signals. If anything, try to prevent it. The wings should pinch if they are not sure, and then rule a TD after the play is dead if necessary. The wings should also look at each other if there is any question as to if he got across.

Peace

I have to agree on pinching in and keep pinching in until you find the ball and determine if it got in or not. Sometimes it maybe after the player is on the ground. The R and U can help a little, i.e. R saw a knee on the ground and then the player wiggle more forward. Either way the wings need to pinch as quick as possible, even start pinched some if they can.

As far as the original question, The idea is to get the wing official that made that call to get it right with a series of questions along the lines of the rules being played. You have PI, holding, or illegal use of hands in this situation. My questions led him to realize the offense was put at no disadvantage on the play. If he said that the defender knocked the receiver off his route with the bump then it would have an S42 and 10 yards. If he comes up and is insistant that B fouled A, he would need to tell me what he did. If he can't then I wave it off, no as an overrule, but as I don't have anything to call/signal.

I had a WH overrule me on one. I flagged a player for a late hit. The flag went against a team getting the butts handed to them. Told the WH what I had and he said "Well since I didn't see it then i am waving it off because the losing sideline is getting out of control and this will probably push them over the edge." I told him after the game I will never work another game with him ever.

REPLY: Just my thoughts...in this mix-up--which could have been prevented by proper crew techniques--one official (H) apparently saw the ball cross the goal. Sounds like the other wing (L) didn't see it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen; just means he didn't see it. I would give the benefit of the doubt to the TD call unless the L says that he saw the runner down prior to the ball crossing the goal. I'm pretty much going along with Roamin Umpire's thoughts here.

Hey R-U...parallax ?!?! Stephen Hawking would be proud of you!!

Parallax
 

Well, I <b>do</b> teach physics for a living...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PS2Man

Quote:

You should never mirror a fellow official if you do not see the play. The first official might be wrong. You do not want be wrong with him.

Truer words were never spoken.



How can you know that?

quote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I cannot argue Football mechanics, but I can relate to poor judgement and the necessity to right a wrong. Maybe some day, you will see my point, but I will concede that some officials do not share my passion. It may seem hollow, but if I have offended you, I apologize. My intention was to argue the points on merit and this discussion became a pissing contest.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you do not know football mechanics at all how can you talk about poor judgement and how it relates to football? Don't you have to understand mechanics before you understand good or bad calls and how to correct them?



I don't need to pick up a pile of sh*t and take a bite to know it will taste bad. I don't need to be a police officer to know that what they did to Rodney King was an exhibotion in poor judgement. I do not need to be a football official to know that a guy signalled completion on a ball that is on the ground. Apparently you don't understand the meaning of poor judgement, since you just opend a closed wound.

Huh? What?
 

WCB,

I am completely lost by your post.

Can you please learn how to keep a post in quotes? It is not that damn difficult. It would be easier to follow and understand what you are commenting on. I only commented on mirroring an official. My comments were shorter than this current post.

It seems like you are just trying to create a situation to act like a 5 year old once again. :rolleyes:

Re: Huh? What?
 

I think he does not want to let it die.

Peace

Thanks to the moderator for locking the other thread.

PLEASE lock and delete both that and this one. The ego trips have gone on long enough.

Sincerely,

A Frustrated Board Member.

For the record.....
 

I am the person that locked the last thread.

Peace

You locked the last thread???
Don't you mean, the Moderator locked the last thread after you made racial overtures again?

Another Jeff Rutledge lie...since when do you have the authority to close a thread here?


PS2Man,

I'll go slow...try to keep up. You said, "If you do not know football mechanics at all how can you talk about poor judgement and how it relates to football? Don't you have to understand mechanics before you understand good or bad calls and how to correct them?"

To which I replied...

"I don't need to pick up a pile of sh*t and take a bite to know it will taste bad. I don't need to be a police officer to know that what they did to Rodney King was an exhibition in poor judgement. I do not need to be a football official to know that a guy signalled completion on a ball that is on the ground. Apparently you don't understand the meaning of poor judgement, since you just opend a closed wound."

I apologized for offending you and then...who acted like the 5 year old? Yes, that would be the person standing in front of your mirror. Take a close look before you start throwing stones again. I thought this was behind us, but I guess I underestimated your ability to handle an apology.

You now claim that one cannot recognize poor judgement without being associated with it in some way. I can't believe that you taught your children that.

WCB, PS2 & Rut,

No offensive to any of you personally, but if you 3 want to continue this, why don't you take it to an AOL chat room or something, because this no long has anything to do with football. Two of you being senior members should know this. I use to be able to read every post a get some good info out of them. That no longer seems to be the case. Please take this somewhere else and lets talk football.

I have not continued anything. I closed the last post because it was clear the conversation was going no where. Mick informed me that I could close my own post, which I had forgot was an option, I closed it immediately.

If you do not like the posts, you can always not read them. This is an open forum that has a lot of points of view and opinions. I do not care to care on a conversation that is appropriate for this forum to another place.

Do not tell me what I should do. Do not tell me where I should have a conversation. I am not having a conversation on another forum when I frequently come here and ask many questions. If you noticed I have asked other questions related to football and other sports and got professional responses. It is also the right of anyone to dispute that. I like people to show their true colors and that is happening here with certain people. You do not have to pay attention or read any posts that you see are unfit for your liking. But I am not going to a chat room or any other discussion board to have officiating conversations. If you do not like it, so be it. You cannot make everyone happy.
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Peace

Here is an email from Mick the moderator yesterday.

<b>Rut,
I closed it.
I think you could have done that (because you started the thread) if you would have gone to administrative options at the bottom and just clicked on open/close thread
When it asks for identification, I think your name would've been there and you could have just clicked enter.
If you wanna try it, I'll re-open it and you can close it.
mick</b>

Mick then email me today.

<b>Looks like you made it happen.

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_2.gif' alt='Clappy' border=0></a>
mick</b>

This was all after I had requested mick close the thread. I had the last word after 12:00am when I got home and closed the thread. Anyone can delete or close the thread that they start. I started the thread, and after mick reminded me, I closed it.

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/360v.gif' alt='' border=0></a>

Peace

For Jeff
 

The play was a QB sneak right up the gut. Does the call belong to the L or the LJ? In my scenario, both were <b>certain</b> of what they saw. Logic tell us that one of them saw it incorrectly, but neither were willing to back down and change their own call.

Maybe my confusion is that I do not understand the definition of "decision" and "overrule". Until your post, I thought the L made a decision when he signaled TD, and I thought the LJ made a decision when he signaled no TD. If, as you assert, the decision is not made until the call is final, then there is never an overrule. If a flag is thrown for a clip, but the Referee, with no discussion, tells the official to put his flag back in his pocket and the game goes on without a penalty being assessed, that is not an "overrule" as it occurred before the final "decision" was made. If we had all been working from these definitions, the discussion whould have ended long ago.

I am only going to address your football comment.
 

You talked about being a Police officer. In order to become a Police officer you have to go thru a great deal of training and testing in order to get into that profession. I do not know just walk off the street and become a police officer overnight. I have some very close friends that are officers and they had to go thru months of training and testing before they could even get a job. I think if you decided become a football officials you at least know how to officiate a sport. The problem is that you would still go thru a few years of learning the game and the nuances to become a good official in the sport of football. I had to retrain myself when I added another sport as well. What I would see on TV would not apply to the rules and mechanics I that are in the officiating manuals and NCAA and NF Rules.

Re: For Jeff
 

The call belongs to both of them. Usually only one official is going to get a good look at the play. They should pinch, and then make a decision based on where they see the ball or where they can tell the play was stopped at. There is not hurry to make a call here.

A decision is what you are going to say happen on the play. To overrule someone is to see something that your partner did and then tell him he was wrong and then change the call. I know we have beat that dead horse, but you cannot do that. If you do you that you might find that official not working very long. You are a team. The officials should always coordinate signals or calls in those specific situations. I am a Referee on my crew. When my partners call a foul, all they do is report to me. I cannot tell them they are wrong or that they should not have thrown the flag. I can help them make a final decision by asking appropriate questions. I do need to know what, who and when, but it is up to them to tell me. I cannot do that for them. That is really the case on plays that I am covering my own responsibility.

They both did, but you cannot have a TD and the ball down short of the goal line. You have to come to a final decision and decide what actually took place.


That is what I am saying.

I would hope that the Referee is saying to the officials why that flag should be picked up. Because I can assume that the Referee and the calling official has a different angle and it is very possible that they both did not see the play the same way. The Referee does not have the right to just tell the calling official to pick up that flag. The Referee's role is to signal all fouls and explain actions for the crew when they take place. If we are talking about a game at the D1 level for example, the Referee and the calling official would get a downgrade if they pick up the flag and they were wrong. So the Referee better be sure he has some information that can change the call and the calling official better be sure he is right.

To summarize your play. In your example the H and HL cannot have it both ways. We have to make a decision one way or another. It is very likely someone will get criticized for making a call that they did not see. So what you have to do is have whoever's side the ball was on or decide who had a better look at the play. But that is why you hear the term, “SEE LEATHER" so often. If you do not see the ball, you should never blow your whistle on tackles and TD plays. That is a perfect recipe for an inadvertent whistle or disaster.


I do not think so. You have people that will feel it is their God given right to change calls regardless of the procedure they use. I just know that if you want to get the call right that is a noble ideal, but you better be 120% sure that you are changing a call that is right. Bad judgment does not just reside with the initial play. You can use bad judgment in changing the call as well.

Peace

This entire time I have stuck to football. I do not see why that is a problem. I do feel like there should be a certain professional conduct by fellow officials and I have expressed that a little bit. This discussion for me has been all about football. It will continue to be about football.

Do I need to cut and paste your comments?

Please don't pretend that you are being professional in all of your responses. Your words are the only evidence I need.

Lastly, my law enforcement reference was dead on. One must only be able to witness an injustice or use of poor judgement to make a difference. I am certain that the people that video taped Rodney King being brutalized by the highly trained officers of the City of Los Angeles were not members of the law enforcement community. yet, they were perfectly able to recognize poor judgement and comment on it. My brother in law is a Sergeant with the Texas DPS (State Trooper). I have had plenty of discussions about his training and the judgement involved in his career. You've failed to recognize the difference between seeing someone doing something wrong and being able to comment on it. You say that you can't comment on a bad call made by an official unless you are an official in that sport, as well. Hogwash! If I see a referee signal a three point shot or a Side Judge indicate that a pass was complete, only to see replays that clearly show the foot over the line prior to release and the ball hit the ground before the receiver retained it, I can sure as hell say that the official blew the call. I do not need to know his mechanics; I do not have to train for years to know how to call a completed pass; I just have to use my eyes to see the call and then my mouth to comment. We don't like being second guessed by outsiders. But, the difference here is that if I made the call and a fan is yelling that I need glasses, it is very different from another official saying that I need to be qualified before I can recognize a bad call. Who are you kidding?