In light of what the Big Ten is doing with instant replay, I want to bounce this question off the board.

Since this is not going to be asked by the person that keep making this an issue.

When is it acceptable to overrule your partner?

Give examples if you can when it is appropriate if you can.

I will stay completely out of this discussion and just throw this out there.

Peace

I take the position as the referee that I am no more important than any other person on the field. I have always used this approach. If a crew member makes a call that I do not agree with I will go to him and ask him what did he see. After he explains his call and I still am not sure I will ask him if he thinks his call is right. If he says yes, then we will go with it. If he asks me what I say and think I will then tell him. It is his decision to go or not go with the call. I personally think the worse thing to do is to tell another official you are wrong and we are going to change that call. That is the quickest way I know to destroy the confidence of an official in his own calls. This is a two way street, many times one of my crew members will do exactly what I described to me. It allows me to rehash the situation and work towards the correct application.

This is a great approach, I would hate it if a WH came over and told me he was waiving the flag off, now if he used this approach and he said he saw somthing different then I would agree with the change.

If the call is a judgment call, I would never overrule...i.e. a block in the back, or possession before going out-of-bounds.

If it is a specific rule call, and, as the R, I have some doubt, I would ask for the facts and make a final decision...i.e. a newer wing official throws a flag and tells me he has an illegal "crack-back" block.

If I have two officials on the crew differing on a call, I would listen to the facts from both, and guide them to the "exception"...i.e. the LJ saw the ball hit the ground on a pass but the BJ thought it was complete. The BJ cannot swear the ball DIDN'T hit the ground - he can only say that he didn't see it hit the ground...whereas the LJ says he did see it hit the ground. So I go with the LJ.

My pet peeve, however, is the wing official who, when confronted by a coach on the sideline about a questionable call by another official, tells the arguing coach, "It wasn't my call, coach". IMHO, that totally undermines the authority of the other official and basically is saying that if it was his call, he would have ruled differently. The wing needs to say, "John was right there, coach...he called what he saw...you and I can't see from here all that he saw."

I agree. My response is short and simple "Coach it was an incomplete pass" I think it keep coaches from being able to come up with a rebuttal.

Overrule? almost never
 

I had a Referee that wanted to over-rule a PI 30 yards downfield. As the Umpire on that crew, I felt I had to step in and tell the white hat that he had no business making that decision. The BJ made the call in his zone. If the Referee was looking 30 yards downfield, what was happening in the backfield?

Re: Overrule? almost never
 

Just curious, what were the circumstances for overruling?

He didn't think PI should have been called. He gave no reason other than he didn't think it should have been called.

He informed the crew at halftime that we were not to throw any more flags for the rest of the game. No matter what!

Well, I just couldn't resist the temptation to throw a flag for "aiding the runner". That almost sent him into orbit. Before he could "wave it off", I picked up the ball and marked off 5 yards. As he stood there looking at me, I asked him if he wanted to give the signal, or did he want me to?

I haven't worked on his crew for the last few years; because now he is a LJ, and I am a white hat.

I agree totally that the wingman needs to "backup" the call and not just say "it wasn't my call." I do not, however, find it wise to say "I/We can't see that from here." While it may be true that you indeed cannot see "it," I do not think it is wise to give the coach the "ammunition" of your not being able to see it, as that can be twisted in undesirable ways. Anyway, my two cents on the subject.

That's basically what I was trying to say lol. Just have a short line that ends the conversation. "Coach it was an incomplete pass."

Rut, Rut, Rut....
 

I wondered when this was going to appear on this side of the board. I would imagine that it doesn't create quite the fireworks it did on the Baseball side. :)

As a new white hat this is what I do on my crew. The only grounds I have to overrule a call is if a flag was thrown out of zone as indicated in CW4 Gilgen's situation. I would only do this on a judgement play like PI. My reasoning is this, if you can't watch your own zone, what business do you have to be watching another's zone.

As a young LJ I made the mistake of throwing a flag of intentional grounding. My white hat said, calmly, what do you have and why? I told him and he said that is not your call. He waved the flag off. At half-time, he "politely" helped me get things straight. Two lessons learned - 1) call my zone, 2) IG is the WH's call.

I did , once
 

Pop-warner action, I was R. Kick-off return, I am tailing runner as he is streaking down HL side for td. HL tosses an illegal block in back, it definately was not, kid engaged from side and blockee twisted and ended up going down from behind. HL was young kid, bout 20, very timid, but getting lots better. I waved off flag and allowed the score. Pissed off that coach, he was a screaming!!! Also defended the kid's calls on many occasion, this one I saw clearly and did the "right" thing, although now I do agree to talk to him first. My Varsity crew chief did that with me on the same type of call, sweep play to my side, we waved it off.

Upon further review, I stepped on toes, not cool.

Did a semi-pro game where we had a pretty good scuffle and some ejections: after the first punch was thrown, I just stood back & started writing down numbers. After everybody calmed down & we sorted things I out, I reported my ejections; One of the players that I witnessed throwing a punch early in the "event" was #20 white. When I reported it, the wing from the far sideline knew that white had two #20's. He went & found the one guy--he had remained on the far sideline during the altercation and the other #20 was one of the captains who supposedely had helped "break it up". So the rest of the crew decided that I must have called the wrong number. I know that a white #20 was fighting; in contrast, there was a white jersey player that I never did get the number on--I could see the second numeral was a "1" but I wasn't going to guess at it--fortunately another offciial got him. What am I supposed to tell the coach on my side on something like this?

I would tell the coach that I didn't know because I was busy working my area of responsibility. If it was in my area, then I would tell him that if the flag was thrown then it needed to be thrown (or something along those line). May not be the best responses but I am a bit more brunt the some others.

Also I would not overrule my partner(s). Now if I feel they got it wrong, I would ask him some pointed questions to makes sure they they are 100% sure of their call. If it was a matter of catch/no catch I would give my side of what I saw and then see if we come to some type of agreement. If not then revert to original call.

[Edited by cowbyfan1 on Aug 11th, 2004 at 07:37 AM]

Getting the Call Right
 

Uh, oh...just found this,too.

Jumpmaster and Chris S seem to be two more good officials that give examples of this happening. I believe we called it "Getting the Call Right" on the baseball board. It seems that the Big Ten has decided to try an experiment that will assist some already terrific officials in making sure that the right call is made. Since this is just an experiment this season with ramifications for the future, it will surely be scrutinized even more than the original call.

Since only game deciding calls - their words - will be looked at and possibly over ruled by Technical Advisors, it seems like a pretty good start. Will there be problems, undoubtedly, but I bet they bring it back in some form for the rest of D-1 football in the next few years.

By the way, football referees, I do not work in your sport, nor do I pretend to know the intricacies of officiating it. I enjoy watching all levels and may give it a chance someday. More than one of my baseball coaches think I should start now! Until then, I'll leave it to you guys to keep the game fair.

I faced a problem last year when one of the officials on my crew "yelled" at another over a call. Verboten.

My philosophy is I select officials of good quality and integrity who are willing to do what is right in spite of the consequences. Before the season I tell them they are expected to exercise good judgement and that I respect their judgement. If a dispute arises between two officials including myself, we will conference and determine the correct call. If I do overrule a call we will discuss why after the half.

Thank you.
No matter what the contest, the game is bigger than the official. Get the call right and soothe the egos later.

We have some really good referees in Utah. One of them in their pre-games stresses that not one official is more important than the other. He's also on the state board, and I've heard him say in our meetings "If any of you referees think you're more important than the others on your crew, trying stepping on the field all by yourself and see how well the game goes."

Regardless if you disagree with a call by another official, you should never full on argue about it on the field. If you think a call or decision is wrong, you should always talk about it. Best to get it right on the field than to regret it the next day. It is not good to give the players or coaches the impression that you or anyone on your crew may be wrong on something. At times, the official may just state something wrong, or didn't really think about something. For example, if the referee is giving the options to a captain about a penalty and he states something incorrectly, instead of the umpire telling him "No, that's wrong" he could instead say "Could you repeat that?" giving the referee a chance to rethink what he's just stated. Just a thought.

Remember, we live and die as a team out there....

Are you going to advocate an official that has signaled an incomplete pass, and then another official comes in and tells.

Are you going to tell me that if I as the Referee make a call on roughing the passer, my partner has the right to come in and tell me I am wrong?

Now tell me what assignor would advocate that? Jay, Octavio, Loudy?

Peace

Just sad...
 

As usual, Jeff, you missed the point. That's just sad.

You can't focus on the bigger picture, you would rather throw out specific plays and argue about how difficult it would be to get the call right. You would rather argue about egos and taking abunch of grief instead of making sure the game is called justly and equally.

When one of your crew makes a horrible call, do you just stand there and think "Glad that wasn't me." or "He blew it, let him hang."

We know that you never make bad calls, that's why you are working in the NFL. Wait, they make bad calls too, that's why they have instant replay...in order to get the call right!

I'm just glad that others are strating to point out the folly of your philosophy.

Wow...
 

This is a very touchy subject. I was discussing this with one of our trainers and he said that last season one of our officials made a call (not a game I was working at) and the coach asked another official what happened. The official replied that his crew-mate made the wrong call but that it was not in his area so he could not overrule his crew-mate. Well you can imagine how upset the coach was.

We must be all-for-one and one-for-all out there. If we are doing our jobs there should be 2 looks at each play. And if we are absolutely certain then we need to communicate among ourselves (don't hang your fellow official in front of the coach!) and get the right call. But our attitudes must be always honest, brave and show respect. And don't forget humble: every season I've had at least one flag waved-off. I leave my personal pride home before driving to the game.

Don't think that a coach who you confide to about another official's 'bad' call respects you any more than the official who made the supposedly bad call.

You do a discredit to your crew, to the official in question, and to yourself if you go cutting the legs out from a fellow official to a coach. Handle a disagreement the right way. "Coach, I was covering a different area on that play" should be the answer to a coach's solicitation of your opinion on a tight play.


You shouldn't see most of the things another official is looking at if you're looking at your own specific keys and your specific area on any given play. Granted, two wings looking in at a dive play can see the same thing, but one may be screened by a body and the opposite wing can see a knee down that his partner didn't. Come together and tell what you saw.

Good calls, bad calls - it doesn't matter. Your only true friends out there are wearing the same shirt you're wearing.

Agreed
 

Mike,
Agreed...we can certainly support our crew while getting the call right. If you have to change a call, there is a proper way to do it and it does not involve selling him/her out to a coach. Getting the crew together and admitting that the call needs to be changed - away from prying eyes and ears, is the goal. Big-leaguing your partner or saying "I can't over rule him from here." is B.S., yet we see it on all kinds of fields and courts. We all try to get them right, but sometimes our brain, hands and mouth don't work together. Other times we are sure that we saw something that just didn't happen - hey, we're human. But being in possession of a conscience is what makes us different from the guys betting on the games. If we see something that is obviously wrong, we are obligated to get it right. We have no vested interest in the outcome. Who knows...maybe one of those players will remember us and the job we did, then want to officiate. The guys on the field deserve it.

I am waiting for an example.
 

Windy, if football or any sport, you have to focus on specific plays. As the Referee of my crew, I cannot see PI calls. I cannot see incomplete passes down the field. I cannot call defensive holding on a wide receiver. When I was a wing, I could not judge on roughing the passer calls or roughing/running into the kicker calls. If I am doing my job, I do not even know those things take place.

It is clear you do not understand anything about football. I might not even know a bad call was made until I see tape. I might not be able to tell if I see the tape 100 times. Football is about teamwork and responsibilities. It is not the job of every official to make calls for each other. The only way I know if someone blew a call if we talk about it later or we discuss the situation. Penalties and some plays can be discussed or a very quick conversation can be had so we can agree or disagree.

Again, you have a total lack of understanding of football. And in football only a very select of calls can even be reviewed. You cannot review fumbles if the whistle was blown, penalty calls cannot be reviewed and application of the rules cannot be reviewed.

Windy, not one person is taking an issue with my point of view on this. Not one person is saying my point of view is flawed. You (a baseball only official) are the only person telling us how different my opinion is from everyone here. In football we work much more as a team than in any sport I work. There are several calls that we have to look to each other before a call can be made. But there are plays that can NEVER be changed or made without the original calling official deciding to change. If two officials both make an opposing signal, neither call is right or wrong. But a decision has to be made either way. I have given you several examples of how it works in football and all you keep coming back to is what the NFL is doing or the Big Ten. I am just waiting for you to give us an example outside of that instant replay argument how another officials can "overrule" another. It is not hard to do. I am trying to have this discussion based on the issue, not the personalities at play. Again, you do not work football but you come here and to the basketball board to tell folks that work the sport what they can and cannot do. Why don't you ask those in your area what they do and what is acceptable? I was at the IACAO Clinic all weekend and even gave a presentation and no one uses that language or tried to suggest that any officials could change a call without consent or consultation with the calling official.

BTW, stop taking one individual and make it seem like everyone agrees with your point of view. There have been several people that suggest you cannot "overrule" a partner. Why not reference those people?

Peace

Re: I am waiting for an example.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Re: I am waiting for an example.
 

Jeff, this is a correct statement and I (and WCB) will happily concede this. However, there are circumstance when we as officials are overruled. Earlier in this thread I cited a personal experience a call that was overruled by my white hat. I flagged the quarterback for IG. The white hat waved my flag off because, in HIS judgement, it was not IG. I was out of position and not covering my area. 2 mistakes on my part that resulted in my flag being waved off.

Experience has taught me that when you start making statements such as "...no one uses that language..." you are either ignorant of the situation or working within a very small pool of people. Funny thing, I know of 3 NCAA officials who believe that you are off base and attempting to apply absolutes to a very fluid situation, seems like poor judgement (based on your credentials) or a lack of experience.

I will offer this point - as the skill level of the official increases, fewer of these overule/change types of situations occur.

Re: Re: I am waiting for an example.
 

The White hat is the only person in a 5 man crew or 6 or 7 that has IG calls. You cannot call IG calls from any position. I would not call that being "overruled" I would call that the officials that has the call is not allowing you to make that call. On all penalties in football, the plays can be discussed and if information is given, you might pick up the flag. But that is not overruling another partner, that is discussing the situation and coming to a conclusion. A great example of this would be on a DPI call, when the ball is tipped at the LOS and the Umpire and the Referee see the ball touched. Then the Back Judge is not aware of the tip and calls DPI incorrectly and throws the flag. Then when the BJ comes to the Referee and tells him what he has. The Umpire and Referee ask him "did you see the tipped pass?" The Back Judge might say, “no I did not, I will pick up the flag." The BJ in that situation did not have his call changed by us; he decided to change his own call. Because as a WH and Umpire, we do cannot always determine when the contact occurred that the BJ saw, he has to make the right decision himself. As a crew we might help him and a good official will take that information to heart and change his call, but we do not change that call.

I belong to the Central Officials Association in Chicago. In the COA we have about 15 Big Ten Officials, currently on the Big Ten Staff. Three Big Ten Crew Chiefs are COA members, Steve Pamon, Jim Lepetina, and Bill LeMonnier. We have of the Technical Advisors for the Big Ten, that will be apart of the "Instant Replay" activities, Tom Quinn and Jim Keogh, both former long time Big Ten Officials. The official that made the famous TD call in the Michigan State-Notre Dame with Charles Rogers was Jack Lyman as Back Judge. We have 3 current NFL officials in our group, Michael Banks, Rich Reels and Tony Michalek. I have for the past 5 years heard these individuals speech every year at regular meetings and clinics and have never heard them talk about "overruling" and that being an acceptable practice. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. I have never heard the many other officials that I did not mention in the Big Ten or that work the D3 and JUCO conferences in our area use that language their presentations. I work with a crew that has worked 2 State Finals in Illinois, they do not use that language or that practice in the games I work with them. I have been on 2 varsity crews in my career, I have never had anyone on those crews use that language. I have filled in with many other crews with IHSA Clinicians and many playoff officials; they do not use that language. The playoff crew I worked with during my first playoff game, we did not use that language. My IACAO Presentation talked about situations to help each other and work together, I did not use that language and anyone that was asked to participate in my presentation, did not use that language.

I will tell this story to sum this all up.

I had a varsity game about 2 years ago. This was my first full year as Referee. We happen to have CBS Channel 2 Chicago was at this game. CLTV showed highlights of this game and play I will describe.

The QB rolls out to the right and makes a pass. I have coverage of the QB and only see his release. The QB throws a pass in the end zone, I hear the crowd and see both my Back Judge signal TD and Line Judge signals incomplete pass. I run to their discussion and all I say, “what do you guys have." I do not tell them what to do; we just needed to clarify what our ruling was. The LJ backs off, mainly because the BJ had a better look at the play and tells me we have a touchdown. I signal TD to the press box. The CBS TV truck was sitting near that end zone and they had a camera that had a great look at the play. My Linesman did not see the play. My Umpire was not sure or could not rule on the play. Of course I was watching the QB to make sure he was not hit illegally, so I had no idea of what happen on the play. My Linesman and Umpire were asked by a technician from CBS to look at the play as we were going locker room. The play was clearly an incomplete pass. An offensive and defensive player both go after the ball but no possession was gained by either. My Back Judge (no longer on my crew) ruled they had dual possession. The only person that could have changed his mind was the LJ and he had doubt himself. When they discussed the play on the field, we had to go with what they decided. It was a TD that was clearly the wrong call. None of the other officials could do anything but accept their call. If the TV cameras were not there, I still would have no idea what actually took place on this play. So how could we "overrule" their call? It was wrong, but we had to live with it. We do not have instant replay; we would not have had the benefit of other officials on the field to change the call. We had to live with their call. All I could do as a WH is have them make a clear decision.

Tell me what we should have done differently? What could we have done? What could I have done?

I really would like to know?

Peace

"Over ruling" or "helping."
 

OK, what if they disagree with you? What if they know they saw the entire play? What if the rules do not allow a change to be made? You are still changing the call?


Windy, you really need to read all the responses. In football there are many situations that I can and have provided information. But that is all it is, providing information. And I can provide information in football, but not see the entire play at all. As a Referee there are several situations where I can ask questions, but it is up to the calling official to decide in the end. As it relates to basketball, I can only provide information, the calling official (foul calls) have to make the final decisions. Even on an out of bounds call, the calling officials mechanically and logically have to make the final call. There is a reason they made, it is not my job to tell them they messed up.

It does? So a catch on the other side of the field, I am supposed to know if the receiver was out of bounds? I am supposed to know if a low pass in the opposite side zone was caught? Windy, football and basketball is not baseball. Much of our job is to watch off-ball or things behind the play. If I am watching the ball all the time, I will miss illegal blocks, cheap shots, Roughing penalties, and screens and off-ball fouls in basketball. Baseball most of the time there is one ball and nothing can happen without knowledge of the ball. Most of the time an umpire needs to know where the ball is to make a decision. Not the case in football and basketball. Not at all the case.


My point is that anyone that says that I should know if my partner made a bad call on a football board, it is very clear you have no understanding of the mechanics, procedures and rules of football. Anyone reading your post can see that.


Well right and wrong might not be determined until you see video tape. In football and basketball we get a lot of video tapes on games. If we have a call or a questionable situation, we see the tape. In both basketball and football we have a common saying, "make calls for the video tape." Maybe in your experience you have worked baseball games where video tape is common. But I have cannot serious remember a time a HS varsity or college games were video taped in baseball. It is rare that I work any basketball or football game at the HS or college level. Especially in football.


Who said anything about not correcting a call? I have never said I would not provide information. Reading is a skill. But I also have responsibilities and it is not my job to make sure all my partner's calls are correct. Maybe that is something you do, but not me. I want you to tell me the last time you changed a pitch that you partner behind the plate made? Are you going to claim to us that you have never seen a pitch you felt was all over the plate and you did not change it? Why not change those obvious bad calls? It is an obvious and bad right? You should be able to change it right?


"Wok to get the call right?" What does that mean? I will give information, but I have stated that 1000 times already.


Again, give me an example of how you do this in football? Baseball is not relevant to this discussion really. On my football crews and the basketball officials I work with we do the exact same thing. But there are things that happen we cannot help each other on. I know I do not see all penalties in football, I just make sure based on the information I am given to administer it correctly. If one person messes up, we all mess up. But that does not mean the call was correct or that the holding was actually there. It means that we enforce it from the proper spot and mark off the proper yardage and play from the proper down. But I cannot tell my partner "you messed up that call" when I or others did not see it. And that is not "overruling" that is making sure we apply the rule properly. That is not telling my partner that his "judgment" is flawed. There is a difference.

There is a difference between "over ruling" a call and "changing" a call. And in the rules of football do not allow another official to "over rule" anyone.

Peace

When they discussed the play on the field, we had to go with what they decided. It was a TD that was clearly the wrong call. None of the other officials could do anything but accept their call. If the TV cameras were not there, I still would have no idea what actually took place on this play. So how could we "overrule" their call? It was wrong, but we had to live with it. We do not have instant replay; we would not have had the benefit of other officials on the field to change the call. We had to live with their call.


Take your medication before you hurt yourself.
When has ANYONE said to overrule something you didn't see?
Your opinions and advocacy of leaving plays stand is becoming utter insanity. I don't care who you seen speak or who you've talked to, none of those guys would have a job at that level if they saw an obvious error be made and let it stand. I work at the Division 1 level and you do not. Don't try to tell me what we do as crews. We know that getting here is easy, staying here is tough. You do not get to keep our schedules without making sure the game is called fairly. You may take some heat at the momemt of decision, but in the long run, the ADs and Director of Officiating for that conference will back you if you keep showing that you will do whatever you have to in order to make the right call. Stop pretending that these calls don't happen. They occur in almost every sport when the officials care about their jobs. BTW, I've known Lapetina, Lyons, LeMonnier and Honig for over a decade. One thing is certain, they expect perfection on the field and will do whatever is necessary to insure that they do not end up on the highlight reel for kicking a call and letting it stand. Name dropping won't work with me.

What?
 

It is rare that I work any basketball or football game at the HS or college level. Especially in football.


Wow, that was a clever use of language. Was it English?

I asked someone to translate it for me and he jumped off a building right after reading it.

So, you don't work highschool and college basketball and football???


To All Other Board Readers: Please refrain from laughing, it will hurt his feelings. We all know that if we have a serious football question, we need only direct to our football friend from Wheaton, Illinois. Especially if it deals with football. ;}

What?
 

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
My D-1 baseball crews work as a team, too. We don't let our partners kick calls - we push everyone to be better and support each other on and off the field. But, if one of them blows something and one of us has input to correct it, we do. We may look goofy for a little while, but we have been at it for over a dozen years and have our schedules filled for 2005.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, give me an example of how you do this in football?

Have you ever waved off on inadvertant flag?
Have you ever had a younger partner throw a flag for a perceived offense only to have to correct it once he explains what he saw?
Have you ever had one official say "Catch" and another signal "Incomplete" on the same play? One of those guys will be overruled. But, I don't have any example for you. Just the ones that have been mentioned by all of us.

Re: What?
 

I have waved off a flag before, but not an inadvertent flag, whatever that means.

Yes, but I do not change the call, he changes the call. And most of the time they are unclear about what the foul is called, rather than deciding to pick up a flag. For example if we have a chop block as compared to a block below the waist. Or an the officials might call a foul the "halo" rule and we figure out he just had Kick-Catching Interference when we discuss the situation. We still have a foul, we just decide what the foul is.

I really think you do not understand what the word "overrule means. If there are two different signals, there obviously has not been a final decision made. Mechanically, there should not ever be two different signals in the first place (there is no catch signal). If the sideline is threatened, the officials should make eye contact and work together to make the call. One might have the feet; the other might have the control of the ball. They have to work together to make a call. One official cannot just make that call alone. Now when the ball is incomplete and multiple officials have to make a decision, it is common to allow the one official that sees the ball hit the ground to make a call immediately. The other officials might not be completely sure if the ball is caught and wait for help from fellow officials. But to suggest that is being overruled is silly. We might work together to make a call, but that does not mean a decision changed. This is not baseball where one person has a call independent of each other. In football and in basketball officials have to look at each other on many possible calls. A decision should never be made without some eye contact or a couple words, then we make a decision. Can you say block/charge.

Peace

Wake up you're missing a good discussion
 

Are you a friggin' idiot?


Have you never seen an NFL game where one official makes the signal for Completed Pass/Catch and another comes running in and signals that the ball hit the ground first and it is Incomplete? I've seen dozens of these calls and they are done immediately. One guy makes a call, another has a different angle and says no way. THEY GOT THE CALL RIGHT! It was overruled by another official...there was no deliberation, no hurt egos, no Rut mucking up a good system.

You must have a problem understanding the word overrule. How about "he made a bad call, I saw it better and we will get it right because the players deserve it". Will that do it for you?

Wake up!

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Aug 19th, 2004 at 02:16 PM]

I'm the white hat on a three-man crew working a JV game. A sweep right, and as A1 tries to turn the corner A2 throws a vicious block on B1 who has the best angle to tackle A1. The block is entirely legal: high and, because B1 had just turned, in front.

But out comes HL's flag. I call a conference of we three and I attempt to talk HL out of the flag. HL adamantly refuses to correct his call, out of pure ego. L didn't see the block, so the vote is one against one and I let the call stand.

Although I have many higher-level games and a few years behind me now, my failure to wave off that flag still haunts me to this day.

Muchas Gracias, compadré
 

Thank you.

You are obviously wise beyond your years.

What???
 

I am the idiot, but you do not understand that the officials are just working together? That is common? What does that have to do with "overruling" a partner?


MORE THAN ONE OFFICIAL HAS CATCH/NO CATCH RESPONSIBLITY ON THE SAME PLAY!!!! There is almost never a call that only one official is stuck with. NO ONE OFFICIAL IS GOING TO MAKE A CALL WITHOUT A LOOK FROM A FELLOW OFFICIAL. Forward progress, blocking fouls, catch/no catch, TD/no TD calls, all can be made with 2 or more officials. The more officials on the field, the more opportunities to look to each other to get the calls right. It is not like in baseball where only the PU has to determine ball and strikes only. Unless we are talking about the Referee that has VERY SPECIFIC PLAYS WITH THE QB OR KICKER, on every play there is collaboration with a call.

It is very clear you do not officiate. I cannot believe that someone "claims" to work D1 Baseball is so out of touch with reality and common sense. ALMOST ALL CATCHES ARE MADE WITH 2 OR MORE OFFICIALS IN COORDINATION WITH EACH OTHER.

Peace

Rut/R.I.T. (Referee in Training)
 

It is very clear you do not officiate. I cannot believe that someone "claims" to work D1 Baseball is so out of touch with reality and common sense. ALMOST ALL CATCHES ARE MADE WITH 2 OR MORE OFFICIALS IN COORDINATION WITH EACH OTHER.

If your opinion defines "common sense" then why have none of the reality based football officials come to you aid lately? The only ones I've seen are guys who contend that my point of view seems to be the way the world is going.

Occassionally we, as officials, get a call wrong. When that happens and another officials has a different opinion that seems to controvert the first call, we overrule the original for the good of the game. You previousl alluded to a play that involved your crew. Your back crew blew it, BUT, if YOU would have seen that it wasn't a catch, as referee - even though they were right on top of it - you wouldn't have offered to change the call, because your rule book doesn't allow for it. God, you make this easy!

FYI, if two guys are responsible for watching every catch, then why is it that we see those plays reviewed and overturned each Sunday. Maybe, because they got the call wrong and the league understands the responsibility for correcting human error when possible?!? Let's not forget, those guys have officiated more than 18 varisty games.

Windy,

I think your personal attacks are a bit much.

To be perfectly honest both you and Rut are basically saying the same thing. Both of you are saying that the correct call needs to be made.

He is simply saying that as an official he doesn't feel it is proper to decide that another official has erred. He is saying that the crew gets together and helps the official to see his error and consequently correct his own call. He is not saying leave an obvious error be, he is simply saying that no one official can run in and play God and overrule another official. As a team, the officials work together to get the call corrected.

My take on the matter.....

I have been watching this sillyness.
 

I have been watching this discussion closely.

I have officiated football for 20 plus years. I work some lower level college football as and I personally advanced far in the High School Playoffs.

You never over rule a partner. I will say it again. You never over rule a partner. You might work with a fellow official to come to a conclusion but you never over rule a partner.

Are there calls that can get change? Of course they can. But that is not over ruling a partner.

When a Judge in the court of law over rules a court Judge he or she does that independent of the lower level judge. In officiating and the sports I do that is not the case. A fellow official will have a conversation that might help that official make a call opposite of the original call. In most cases that is done with an understanding in pregame and how it will be done. You still can never over rule a fellow official regardless of how bad you think it is. You have to work together and come to a conclusion. You might even think there was a bad call that was made but that does not give you the right to change a call without their consent or without a conversation.

WCB, you are a travesty to fellow officials. Your name calling is not right and is very unnecessary. Rut has not done anything to you hear to warrant your behavior and your words. You might disagree with his philosophy or many others that do not share your point of view. There is a way to do that without all the terrible behavior on your part. No one is perfect and neither are you. But to suggest that rut is way off base is a disservice to everyone reading this board. Most officials that advance understand what their role is on a football field. You have claimed not to even work football and you are not educated in the ways of knowing what football officials do. I just think you are a sad person that could not be anything you claim to be. I have never met anyone on the level you say you are act as uncouth the way you do constantly. I guess it just goes to show that you are not at those levels.

Now are you going to call me names and tell me what I do not know?

More name calling I see.
 

This issue is not about how many are on one side. Then how many are on the other side. I did not get to where I have in my officiating career or life just listening to anyone that has an opinion. Sorry, but I am not keeping score.


In football we do not have safe and out, balls and strikes. If someone has an opinion, it does not mean we will still not have a call, we might eject a player rather than just give a PF. And just because someone gives an opinion, it does not mean that we will change the decision just because someone disagrees. As a Referee I have had officials try to tell us to administer a rule improperly because they either did not realize the status of the ball. So no you cannot just take an official's word for their point of view.

I should not see a catch downfield as a Referee in a 5 man crew. Not sure how I would have knowledge of that play. I have to watch hits on the QB and any actions behind the play. I should not see a pass to where I can tell if it was completed or not.

The reason those are overturned is because we have 12 cameras and many angles that can catch most plays. They cannot overturn calls that have no conclusive evidence. Also, those plays are repeated on SportsCenter 100 times a night and the NFL thought they could use a system to change plays. But the officials on the field still have to come up with a call and they can only change a call based on what the official on the field called. And now the Big Ten has gone to an instant replay system that is not like the NFL. It is very possible that no calls will get changed during Big Ten game.

Let us also remember, that they are going to be evaluated much more then if they get a call right that might get reviewed. They will also be evaluated on flags and who threw them and who did not throw them (not reviewable in any replay system). They will be evaluated on who is in position to make the call. They will be evaluated on if they applied the rule properly (those are almost ever reviewed).

Remember the NY Giants/49ers playoff game? There was an illegal man downfield and a DPI on the same play. The play was not reviewable at all. No flag, no change in the outcome of the game. The officials blew the call and the NFL gave an "apology" and even changed their crew concept for the playoffs as a result. Now what should have happen in that play, there should have been offsetting penalties and NY should have received another opportunity to kick the FG to win the game. And it was hard to argue that this was not a very bad call, but there was nothing that could be done by the officials or the NFL at that time. And if that were to happen today in the Big Ten or NFL, they same result would take place. It would look bad, but it could not be changed. If someone does not throw a flag, you cannot come in and make it a penalty after the fact. ;)

Peace

Windy it is obvious to me that you are misapplying the term or meaning of overturning your fellow official. Even in baseball you should never overturn your partner. If you call and out on a play at first and I, as PU and UIC were to just come running up and say no your wrong, he is safe, you would be pissed. The is overruling. Now if the coach asks for you to check with me to see if the 1b pulled his foot, you would thhen ask me, I would say yes he did (if he did) and then you would change your call IF YOU WANTED TO. Nothing says you have to change your call, tho in that situation most officials would.

I also worked as a White hat in a varisty game last year. The head coach of team A kept yelling his receivers were being bumped more than 5 yards down field. Next play my LJ throws a flag. I asked him what he had and he told me the defender bumped the receiver more than 5 yards down field. I preceeded to tell him that is an NFL rule, not High school. I then asked him if the defender held the reciever. He said no. I asked him if when the bump happened was the pas in the air. He said no. I then asked him if the bump kept the reciever from getting downfield at all. He said no. I then asked him then you think I should wave off the flag and he said yes. Again I did not overrule him tho I knew he was wrong. I helped him see the error of his way and he changed the call. (yes I know some people would say that a flag was in order for illegal use of hands, but I was looking for advantage/disadvantage and the wing felt there was none so no flag).

So I think what you and Rut have is just a different definition of overrule. I call baseball, football and basketball and I would, nor have I ever "overruled" a fellow official. Also keep in mind, on a basketball court and football field, the chance of 2 officials seeing different things on the same play is alot more likely to happen than in baseball.

PS2Man: Here is your hero...but not a travesty of officiating.

Go back to the baseball board.
 

I think he is right.

You need something. A woman. Medication or join the football ranks. I am not sure you would want to lower yourself by doing the right thing.

You might start by admitting you are wrong or that you do not know what you are talking about. Just a suggestion.

An apology anytime will suffice...
 

No need to call you names. I can dress you down just fine without them. Why not respond to Rut's quote that I copied and pasted here? Uh, oh...did you really read all of the threads (General, BB, Basketball and Football) relating to this post or just what you wanted? Uneducated people swear when they can't think of a reply to a debate. But, again, I'm the travesty.

I’m glad to see how adamant you are regarding this discussion. “Never overrule your partner’s call.” You should probably give MLB a phone call, since four (4) foul ball homerun calls were overruled this year. They probably did not get the memo that you and Rut did.

I’ve been at this quite a while, as well - on the field and as an instructor at clinics across the country. When you have worked at my level (3 yrs. rostered Minor League, another 8 as a local with the Northern and Frontier Leagues, NCAA D-1/2/3, High School and an American Legion National Championship Series) then you can tell me what is proper mechanically and ethically.

All officials share a code of responsibility and conduct. If you are officiating for more than the money, you probably recognize the importance of getting the call right. We all try to and sometimes fall short. We’ve all worked with guys who have kicked calls that can be corrected, some of us now how to handle it and get the call corrected. Others appear to want to hide behind tradition and pride. The leagues are making us more accountable. It will be up to you to allow a bad call to stand. What will you do when your partner says "It was a touchdown." and the rest of the crew KNOW it ws not, but he won't budge? Your owns words indicate that you’ve obviously made your choice.

I originally posed this question on the baseball board two months ago. Rut jumped in and showed the world how not to debate. He couldn't let it go...HE POSTED IT ON THE FOOTBALL, BASKETBALL AND GENERAL BOARDS, not I. Another member alerted me to his deeds and by the time I got here, Jumpmaster had already taken him to task for not giving up. I never asked for you to choose sides, but you seem to have received some bad information and your horse came up lame.

cowboyfan1: If I understand you correctly, if he had said "No, you should not wave off the flag.", you would not have waved it off. How many yards would the umpire have marked off? What signal would you have given? What would your explanation to the offensive coach have been if he had questioned the call?

Re: An apology anytime will suffice...
 

WCB,

You are a travesty because you are trying to make a mountain of a molehill. You have name called, insulted people that do not agree with you and acted like a complete and total ***. You only look for a few people that seem to take a point of view and not read all the posts. And to top it all off you are not even an official in the sports you seem to have such an opinion on. I really do not care about all the other stuff you have stated. I do care when someone like yourself acts totally out of line when someone disagrees with you. Rut is not the problem here, you are. Rut asked a simple question and no one got personal until you started posting. I have been reading this board for some time even before I posted. I have never seen your name over here. I have never seen you add to the many discussions about all the other issues that concern football officials on this board. You came here to try to make a personal issue with rut and get on his behind because you do not like him.

WCB, go away. Go back to the back to the baseball board. You were laughed off the basketball board and Jurrassic got all over you there and the baseball board when you talked out of turn. I am not taking sides at all. I am just pointing out that you are a troubled individual if you cannot disagree without being disagreeable. Rut did not attack you in this post or even use your name.

Let it go. We do not care anymore. You could not be a respected umpire if the people that looked up to you say your behavior here.

Time to end this discussion.
 

This is the football board, who gives a damn what Major League Baseball do. Major League Baseball also has umpire (officials) get in the face of coaches and players. If a football or basketball officials at the pro and college level did that, they would not have a job after the season or game. I do no think the MLB comparison is relevant to this discussion.

You should be commended or patted on the back for what you have accomplished. But any knowledgeable official knows that what goes on in one sport does not automatically translate to another. Have you done any of those things in football or basketball? Since we are on the football board we know what you accomplishments are there. You have never worked a game, so I really do not care what baseball umpire you do. I do not even umpire past the spring time on purpose.

Depending on the position of the other officials, they are not going to know for sure. If I am a Referee or a back judge or a wing, that call might just be one officials call. Of course there are situations that apply, but all calls are not going to be judged by fellow officials. And just like it was stated before by someone, in football it is very common for two different officials to see different things.

For the record I posted this on the football and baseball boards. You kept referring to those sports and what football and basketball officials did; I thought it would be appropriate to ask the question to those officials directly. It is one thing to ask a bunch of people that do not work those sports, but it is quite another to ask the officials that we are talking about. I did not say why I asked the question, I just asked the question. And I never posted this question on the GENERAL BOARD. It was moved there by moderators after you and I got into it. I also posted this question on the McGriff boards for review. The sentiment was pretty much the same, you cannot over rule partners.


Who the hell is Jumpmaster? Is he some officiating God that we must all talk to before we get on the field? Is he some very well respected official that we all have to listen to when it comes to officiating matters? Does he give us all playoff games? You keep referring to this guy like the rest of us should give a damn. I am sure he is a great guy, but in the past few days there have been about 4 people that agreed with my point of view and summarized my point of view very well. There names are not relevant and have an opinion that is no more valuable than Jumpmaster. We all come from different areas of the country and work different levels and different sports. I do not care what Jumpmaster thinks on this issue. I do not care what you really think about this issue. I mostly find if funny that you are telling officials that actually work the sport what they can and cannot do.

Peace

Re: Re: An apology anytime will suffice...
 

I LOVED THE LAST LINE OF YOUR POST.

WAS THAT THE GOLDEN RULE YOU LIVE BY OR JUST A CUTE LITTLE TURN OF PHRASE THAT OTHERS SHOULD EMBRACE?

I COULDN'T FIGURE IT OUT FROM THE BODY OF YOUR MESSAGE.

I have not once called you a name.
 

WCB,

I have not called you any names. I did not even get personal with you. The only thing I have said that is remotely personal is about your behavior. I just do not see how someone in your position can act they way you do and achieve the things you say you have. You talk about ego and how someone is just holding on to their ego by not making the right call at all costs. All you have shown is that you do not have enough manhood to admit you might be out of your element as an official here. This is not just a baseball discussion and cannot be confined to a baseball discussion. Baseball is a completely different sport. As a baseball umpire myself I have never overruled a partner. If they ask for help I will offer help. If we have discussed something before the game I will only give that help in specific situations. That is my opinion and if it is only my opinion it has worked for me for almost 20 years.

I would have asked him then what is it I'm supposed to call. He would have had to come up with a legit foul per Federation rules.

WSB, Here's an idea. One day when you're doing a baseball game, tell your crew that "getting the call right" is most important. But remember to put your ego to rest when your 2nd base ump tells you that he thinks a pitch you called a ball was a strike. Just get the call right.

Please, stop...I can't stay away from this board and need to get some work done! I can't stay away, though...this dragging of a dead mule is like reality television...we like to watch others make themselves look stupid. WCB, LET IT GO!

Re: I have not once called you a name.
 

Excellent advice...your experience has shown no need to ever correct a bad call. I've seen multiple plays in the MLB and two in the CWS that showed improper calls being made and the crew corrected the mistake. I have never once advocated stopping play and announcing, "Hey, Nimrod, that was a horsesh*t call, let me correct it." You may want to revisit my narrative and see that I suggest there is a proper way to handle it. I am a member of three D-1 baseball crews. I am the crew chief of one. If one of my guys boots a call (rare, because they are very good) we get together and point out that we have a different ruling and that WE NEED TO GET THE CALL RIGHT. His ego may be bruised, but we gain the respect of the people that matter, by making sure the game is called correctly. You may have a different tact, c'est wonderful. All I've ever asked, is that when YOU SEE a call that is blown, you have the stones to get the call corrected.

Some of you understand that this is going to be tough, especially in big games when a prize is on the line. That is when it is even more important. Look at the Olympics...Paul Hamm won a gold medal because of an error made by the judges. Not a judgement error, mind you, but a human error that caused the outcome to be altered. The Lorean did not file the protest correctly, but if there is justice in the world, the governing body will award two golds and acknowledge the error. If not, his award will always be tarnished and the officials will never be respected. The good of the game demands that if you can correct a bad call, you do it. If the rules forbid it, then work to change the rules. Officiate the game like your son was playing in it and the bad call went against him.

OK you win.
 

WCB let it go. You are now using gymnastics as a guide to your position? I do not even consider gymnastics a real sport. Anything where the outcome is judged that in my opinion cannot be a real sport. They do not out jump anyone or knock anyone down to determine the winner. They might as well make the Ms. America Pageant an Olympic sport as well.

WCB let it go. You have long beat a dead horse. You are not changing minds. If anything you are hurting your position by acting like a 10 year old.

Shame on you...
 

...acting like a ten year old.

Is that another of your examples of not calling names and taking the high road? Apparently, using a metaphor, analogy or refernce that is not football explicit is taboo in your world.

It is ironic that you feel free to throw barbs and dismiss my experience without offering more than "20 years officiating" as contrary thought.

You cannot argue with, we AS OFFICIALS, are charged with the duty to call the game fairly. If you see a bad call made and have the ability to correct it (HOWEVER YOU CHOOSE), then it should be done. Otherwise the examples you are setting are dismal. What about the next generation officials? Would you rather have ten guys that just go through the motions or one who does whatever he can to make the game fair and works to make other more responsible? I would rather have one guy that knows the difference between right and wrong and doesn't let his ego get in the way. Maybe this Board is different.

I'm done.

Windy City Blue,

I have only debated this issue with you because I could not believe someone was so absurd in their beliefs on this. I thought maybe you could see a happy medium and see the point of view of others. It is clear that will never happen. I am really in shock that you are a D1 Umpire and more likely are now questioning that statement. There is a guy in my group that behaves just like you. He goes around and tells everyone how much better he is and that everyone else does not deserve their playoff assignments as he does. He is a football officials and no one wants to work with him. He has done the very things you suggest from time to time always trying to dictate what his partner's call. Or at the very least what they should call. This year he is complaining to folks that he is working less then 5 varsity games. He is not a bad official but he does things that completely piss off his fellow officials in games. He has such a bad reputation no matter how good of an official is his attitude overshadows his ability. When you talk to him it is always politics and the buddy system that keeps him back.

I am sure you are a great guy and a great official. But your attitude is what concerns me. I just wonder what you would do if 2 officials have a different opinion, one the calling official and you are the lone guy telling them they got it wrong? Who is right then? How do you change a call and you are outnumbered?

I believe in getting it right. I also believe in working as a team. There is not one individual bigger than the team.

I wish you great success in your further officiating adventures. I just hope you will learn that it is not all about you. This is my last post on this issue. I see you will never see the light.

Windy,

I will not attempt to tell you how to handle a situtation in baseball because it is not my domain. However, in football I would have a way of handling a situation like you present. It is called a USC foul and if you persisted it would be followed by an ejection.

I have a question for you. You have been espousing that one should strive to always get the call right. I have yet to read a single post on this very long thread that has disagreed with this general statement. Every one in their own way had agreed with you on that. Here's my question. Your partner in a game makes a call that you, and only you, see to be incorrect. You approach your partner and inform him that you saw it another way. What do you do if he says he saw it the way he called it and you are wrong? In baseball you may have a crew chief who is by rule incharge of the game and has the authority to overrule any other official on the field. In football, there is no official who has authority over the other officials. The referee is informally called the crew chief because in most cases he is the most senior member of the crew. The referee wears a white hat only for differentiation from other members for easy identification by the pressbox, radio/TV personnel, fans and coaches because he signals the information. No where in the rules of football does it say that when there is a dispute among officials the referee shall have the final say.

I have had situations where I have asked a fellow crew member about a call that I thought he had wrong. A prime example is the block in the back. If the block is originally a legal block and the opponent spins on the blocker and the blocker does not break contact then there is no block in the back. I will always ask when this foul is reported to me if the official saw the initial contact. One of the cannons of football officiating is that if you did not see the complete action you do not call the possible foul. I have many times not called the possible clip because all I saw was two guys on the ground with one laying on the back of the other's legs. I'm pretty sure we had a foul, but I didn't see the whole action.

The way you have come across in you posts makes it seem that you say that you call is always better than the other guys and you will make sure it is corrected to what you saw because that is the "right call". Maybe that is not what you are saying, but that is how you are being perceived as coming across. Always remember that perception is reality to those who perceive it.

Most of the time we are not overruling!!
 

I think this is probably the best possible example we have seen of 'Overruling' another offical. Most of the other discussions are about working together and coming to a conclusion.
In this example (I have had a similar experience last year), the officials could not come to a consensus, and the offical that threw his flag got his way - even though there was a ligitimate question about the foul.
insatty did not overrule the flag - and since he could not convince the HL of what he saw, the foul has to stand.
If not, who gets the final say? Can a BJ overrule a SJ on a pass - can an U overrule a LJ on holding - can a LJ overrule an U on the same holding???

insatty - I was also not able to change the mind of the covering offical, and it bugs me a lot, but I couldn't do anything about it. Afterwards we discussed it, and he was still too 'proud/stubborn' to admit it could have been differently - oh well. We try to reduce the mistakes made to minimize the damage, but sometimes mistakes do get made.

James

Reply to SoGARef
 

Great post - you are articulate and obviously not easily drawn into a “you’re not one of us, so shut up” fracas.

Thank you for recognizing that my words may have been twisted. My original question was “When do you think it is appropriate to overrule your partner?” The can of worms was opened and a few took offense at the suggestion that their talent was being challenged by another official. My point was and remains, we may come across a situation that requires us to abandon tradition and recognize our obligation to get the call right. Your sense of self and ability to communicate with your crew dictates how you handle this. I have in no way advocated stepping in and brutalizing a fellow official. A couple of members have implied that and they are wrong. The proof is in my text - read them and see for yourself. The only thing I have advocated was not dismissing the call because someone else made it and "I don't want to step on his toes."

Here are your answers...
It is true in Baseball we have a Crew Chief who manages the umpiring crew, but he has limited authority to correct something on the field. I am on three separate D-1 baseball crews for three different conferences. I am the crew chief on just one and have been party to both making and changing bad calls. I have blown judgement calls and recognize that if my partner(s) is coming to me to sell the right call, he wasn’t doing it to big league me or steal the show. At our level, we pride ourselves on giving the contestants their moneys worth. The game is not about us. That said, I have had situations where my first base partner called a ball a home run when it was clear to me (and the entire third base/defensive dugout) that the ball was foul. This was a conference game - the first of a long double header. As the batter was rounding second, I trotted out to my partner, (my third base partner watched him touch second, third and home) to ask what he saw. He saw the reaction from the dugout and stands and said he thought it was fair. I told him that I was steady and had a good look at it too - and I know it was foul. He knew that I wouldn’t be telling him this if I wasn’t sure. Our mechanic was to head back to our positions and I indicated that the call was “Foul Ball.” I took a few minutes of grief and he was teased by the fans for the rest of the game. He had the plate for the next game and the coach who had the runs taken away looked at him and said, “That was a gutsy call to change.” To which my partner added, “Thanks, but it was the right call.” That was a gutsy reply. We have had the same crew on that conference for six staright years. That call happened in his first year. I guess that they recognize the fact that we don't bury our mistakes.

Now, I blew a dropped foul call in an even bigger game. The catcher trapped the ball against the screen on a ball going away from me. He spun around when I yelled, “Show me the ball.” and held it in his glove for all of us to see. I signalled “Out” and started to walk back to my position. The first base coach and my first base partner came charging in, with the umpire saying, “Easy, Coach - let me talk to him.” - keeping him at bay. (We don’t like assistant caoches!) I could tell that he was certain when he said the ball glanced the netting and was trapped. He was over 100 feet away and I was just ten...I’ve been in the Minors and he’s got only five years of college ball under his belt...the catcher wouldn’t lie to me...I could have fallen back on any of these. Again, he told me what he saw and I trusted his honesty. He didn’t have a bet on the game, he was trying to save my *** and do the right thing...GET THE CALL RIGHT. I was red-assed the rest of the game and my every call received a hoot or a heckle, but we did our jobs.

So, while it is true that you cannot overrule a play that you have not seen - those are words I have never written, by the way (Shame on you, Rut, for insinuating that I did). An official that can do something to correct the call, should. It is really that simple. If you are not comfortable challenging your crewmates before, during or after the game, then a little soul searching is in order. My crew mates are no more important than I and likewise. I trust them and they are excellent officials, but we all make mistakes. Recognizing that we can fix them is the difference.

Is every call reversible? Absolutely not, despite some members challenging me to over rule a ball or strike call by my partner (Again, shame on you, Rut). But, I’ve asked all of my partners to make sure when we walk off the field, have some pride and be sure that we did our jobs. You’ll know the difference and always remember - the bad calls haunt us forever.

Uh no, Windy, you're twisting words again. You're original point weeks ago was that one official COULD overrule another official IN BASKETBALL. Baseball was never mentioned. It was pointed out to you that there were written rules in both FED and NCAA BASKETBALL that do not allow one official to OVERRULE another official. Those rules were quoted to you <i>verbatim</i> several times. You've been arguing differently to the point that everyone is sick of the topic. Every official in every sport in the whole damn world wants to get the call right, but you can't substitute your judgement for one of your partners and OVERRULE them if they don't wanna change their call. The basketball rules specifically disallow you from doing that, and apparently the football rules do also. That's all Rut, and many other people, have been trying to tell you, so shame on you for not listening to him.

You obviously aren't gonna change your mind. You obviously aren't gonna change too many other people's minds also, including mine. Why don't you just let it go? Everybody's sick of it.

well put...
 

Thank you logic! Good night and have a pleasant tomorrow...next topic please

Jurassic...
I give you my word that I will let this go.

What I ask of you is to go back to my original thread...posted on the baseball site by the way.

It was entitled "When should I over rule my partner?" I archived it on my computer from April 8, 2004. I originated it and when it was closed by the moderators, it was reopened by R.I.T. as "Overruling your partner". So, yes, my original words were twisted. I brought the topic up solely on that Board. R.I.T. did what he always does and argued that you can't overule in any other sport. I gave a football and basketball example of plays that I had seen and you took offense. I never claimed to be knowledgeable of hoops or gridiron mechanics, I just pointed out what I saw. That discussion digressed and was closed again. I posted a follow up about the Big Ten's intention to allow instant replay as a way of justifying "Getting the Call Right", in fact that was the name of the thread. Again, it was ONLY on the baseball site. So, why was R.I.T. compelled to bring iot to the basketball and football boards? What began solely as a baseball discussion devolved because the bigger picture was being ignored.

I thought we had put this behind us, Jurassic. I am not trying to rekindle a brush fire, but I will not allow you to change the facts. You caught the discussion at the mid point, not the beginning.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Aug 24th, 2004 at 12:13 PM]

LET IT GO WINDY, LET IT GO!!!
 

Windy,

You keep trying to insult me at every turn. It is your right to do so if you feel necessary. It just makes you look petty and silly.

First of all this discussion started in a baseball context. You then dragged other sports and the NCAA Basketball example (out of bounds play) and said that "overruling was allowed because you saw it on TV." JR came into the discussion and showed you the rules that contradicted your point of view. A couple of other people that work basketball took issue with your point of view as well. Then you brought up the Big Ten experimental rule that will be used this year. But all this is not really the issue.

I asked this question on the basketball and football boards because it appeared that you were afraid to. Instead of asking people that work those sports, you resorted to further insults of the people that you constantly call names. I know what my position is and many in my area think, I thought it would be appropriate to ask the board. This is not the first time I have asked based on discussions with other officials and it will not be the last. I asked this board a question based on a situation that took place in a scrimmage and asked my football association the very same question yesterday night at our last preseason meeting. We had a very spirited discussion and many different points of views based on the stated rules and common practices. No one called anyone names or tried to insult their fellow official.

It is clear that in both basketball and football boards that most do not agree that you can overrule a fellow official. Of course there are people that think you can and I completely respect their opinion. Other than your posts it has been a very interesting discussion. I do not even see why this is an issue that brings out the worst in you? It is just a discussion about a philosophy and not everyone has to stick to that practice. If you think people are on the other side of that philosophy, do not work with them. I have a lot of say on who works on my football crew and if someone is doing something outside of our "crew philosophy" we have the right to not work with them. In the past few years we got rid of two individuals because they did not fly with your "crew concepts." In basketball I can hire who I want to when it comes to some basketball games, and I do not hire officials that do not fit my basic philosophies or do not fit my standards. It is not wrapped up in one point of view or on aspect of officiating.

As I have said before, I have no problem with your presence here. You can post anytime you like as far as I am concerned. When I started this post I did not use your name or your identity to get a point across. I just think it is sad you cannot have a discussion without name calling or trying to take bits and pieces of the conversation and call more names. This conversation was not just about one or two people. It was not on organization or one level against another. I asked this question to measure the points of view on this topic and to see why people feel the way they do on both sides of the topic. I have achieved everything and more in my short career. I will continue to achieve more as I go along, God willing. And along the way there have always been detractors and critics. So if you feel I am not qualified, so what. I asked the question to see what others think and that is what I accomplished. It is time to let it go and move on. Just do not tell us you know more than guys that have worked the sports in question. That is why you were heavily criticized on the basketball board and it seems that is taking place here.

LET IT GO!!!

Peace

1) Great idea. Let it go. I'm going to after these comments.

2) There's the problems right there. It wasn't Rut that originated the "overrule" argument. It was me. I made a very simple little statement saying that the basketball rules do not allow an official to OVERRULE another official. I cited the pertinent NCAA and NFHS rules citations to back my statement up. You insisted, and still insist, that it happened in a game that you saw. Well, Windy, unfortunately you do not have the rules knowledge of those sports to interpret properly what you actually saw. What you saw was a basketball official making a call, and then another official coming in with new information on that call, followed by the CALLING official changing his OWN call. That procedure is used in both basketball and football, and there certainly ain't nuthin' the matter with it. That IS "getting the call right"! What it ISN"T is one official OVERRULING another official. If the calling official doesn't wanna change his original call, then he CAN'T be OVERRULED, and his original call WON'T be changed. The rules simply do NOT allow any official to OVERRULE another official. An example of the other problem I have with you is highlighted above also- ie- R.I.T aka Referee-in-Training. I'm sick of your name calling and demeaning comments to not only Jeff Rutledge, but anyone else who has the temerity to disagree with you. I expect more from a fellow official.

Now, let's both let this go. The guys on this forum have already told us how sick they are of seeing this crap going around in circles.

AGREED!!!
 

Next topic. :D

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm sick of your name calling and demeaning comments to not only Jeff Rutledge, but anyone else who has the temerity to disagree with you. I expect more from a fellow official.


Sorry to disappoint you, I must have missed the memo that put you in charge.



Now, let's both let this go. The guys on this forum have already told us how sick they are of seeing this crap going around in circles.

You jumped back in, ol'man. Now that the water's gotten rough, you want back in the boat. I gave you an opportunity to end this. Go back to the original topic - my topic, since you did not start the thread. Copy it and paste it here... you can't because you know that I'm right. You've succeeded in twisting my words, intent and message. Go ahead and live with bad calls. Don't bother correcting them, even when it causes an end to a team's season or a lost scholarship. You can always fall back on tradition and your interpretation of the rule book. Those NCAA Tourney guys don't have a hing on you.

Your repertoire with worn out analogies is epic WCB!!!!! You rule! You rule! You win!

Can you let it go now?

Please?

You are an accomplished umpire?
 

Someone is going to lose a scholarship over one call? If they are the claim they were not on solid ground to begin with. Is that even a true? I have officiated for a long time I can never think of a time where just one call changed a game. If it does the players and coaches let it affect them. There are anywhere to 120-140 plays in a football game depending on the level or the teams playing.


What is hing?

I can see you do not understand the basics of basketball officiating. Let it go WCB. Is it really all worth this back and forth and name calling? I think you are lying about all your accomplishments. There cannot be anyone with your resume that is that incompetent. Maybe there is a reason Major League Umpires are looked at as confrontational and out there.

"Old man", Windy? That's a little better than some of the things that you've called me. Maybe we're finally getting someplace with you re: professionalism.

I went back and it looks like the original thread was deleted. <font color = red>Whoops-just found it!! This is where it all started.</font>

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...3&pagenumber=4

However, your follow-up thread should do nicely. It points out your position vs. my position very,very clearly. Note your ACTUAL words in it concerning OVERRULING calls! Do you really want me to waste any more time cutting and pasting those statements of your's out?

Happy reading, Windy! Then give it up.

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...4&pagenumber=2

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 24th, 2004 at 04:01 PM]

Not so fast, Jurassic, you area liar on par with Rut, now.

The first thread you hotlinked was started by Pete Booth, not me. WRONG!

The second was from me, but involved an actual MLB call on Jun 2, 2004...thus the title "Get it Right. MLB Call". It was not the original post from April 8th... AGAIN...WRONG!

Read it and weep...

Oh my, it seems that the innocent question that started it all was taken out of context.
Why should I be surprised by another bad interpretation from our Michigan elder???
Any more bright ideas? Care to paint with a broader brush?

Don’t you just hate it when the facts prove you wrong! You keep quoting my words, I kept pointing out how you twisted them and took snippets from long discussions out of context. Now everyone can see just what was said and what you alleged.

How does that crow taste? Need some shame to wash it down???


Finally, PS2Man, you never worked in the Minors, I did.
If a kid steals on his own and I blow the call and ring him up, he may wind up on a bus home. My bad call + his penchant for being stupid = end of a dream. I guess you've never been involved in a game where you blew a called strike on a close one only to have the kid tag a walk off home run. You are perfect and that is why you hang out here. To show us all how scary your talent is. When did you graduate from Pro School? When did you work in the Minors? What major college conferences do you crew for? When you accomplish those things, you can second guess my advice. Until then, go back to playing the video games taht gave you your moniker. At least those you can master.

No response from me. I hope everyone else let's this one die also (please, Jeff).

My apologies to all of the football officials on this forum for wasting your time with this nonsense.

I am really sorry to the rest of the board. I cannot just let this go.
 

Is there a point here?


Da da de, da da da, da da da aaaaaaa, da da da da life goes on. Was that not a show?

I would never say I have never blown a strike call. If you umpire that is something that is going to happen every now and then. I do not remember as a result that events afterwards happen as you state. I have had calls that I was all on top of and one of the coaches complained and made a big stink about the situation. Then to come back and claim I was right when there player told them what happen.

Your condescending nature is really getting old.

If you need to know I have never attended pro school because I am probably too old to want to become a pro umpire. Some of us also have jobs and responsibilities that would make becoming a pro umpire very difficult. I make a lot more than what they pay as a Minor League Umpire will make in several years of service. I have a very good job and have to put some children thru college sooner than later.

You work in a major conference in Football? Which one, SEC, ACC or Big Ten? We are talking about football here right?

My name has to do with the fact that my kids have me playing PS2 a lot of the time. We have an XBOX, Playstation 2 and Game Cube. I happen to play a lot of Madden with my sons and my children play more of the other systems. I thought it was a funny name and I have many stories with my children because that is one of many things we do together.

My officiating career is something I did before I had them. I wanted a family, not to become the greatest official on this earth. I will say this that I might get some consideration soon at a higher level. I will keep most of that to myself and let you figure it out. The thing is it is not in baseball. I am sure I will make more in a few games than you will make in your entire minor league season if that comes to reality. That is not important but the rest of us are not idiots here. Many of us know what it takes to reach the levels we officiate. You are a sad individual that has all your identity invested in what level you work. I would rather be a good father and good husband and a person respected in the community. Officiating is something I do on the side. All those other things are much more important.

I have no comment either.
 

JR,

I think his post speak for themselves.

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_14_202.gif' alt='Thumbs Down' border=0></a>

Peace

PS2Man...sorry it came to that, but you kept digging. I went to Professional School right out of college. I had no allusions about becoming a professional Major League Baseball Umpire, but a funny thing happened. I was very good at it. I was #2 in my class and asked to work Rookie Ball. I did a few years of it before I got burned out on the live and die nature of it all. I bummed around the country for a few years and made a lot of friends at a lot of levels. I travel for business and can afford to work baseball as a luxury, not a necessity. It is not my life, but I am very passionate about doing it well. I can get the same satisfaction out of watching my children excel at school or sports. I appreciate the honesty you've exhibited, but you have to recognize that I can have an opinion about a sport I don't work. I tried to back my argument with facts and support my thesis with my experience. I cannot argue Football mechanics, but I can relate to poor judgement and the necessity to right a wrong. Maybe some day, you will see my point, but I will concede that some officials do not share my passion. It may seem hollow, but if I have offended you, I apologize. My intention was to argue the points on merit and this discussion became a pissing contest.

I shall offer no such truce with Jurassic and Rut. The facts speak for themselves. I gave Jurassic his proof and showed the world his lie. If you have been on these Boards for any amount of time you will recognize that Jeff Rutledge is no stranger to exagerration and hyperbole. (He doesn't like it when you say he lies.) You read the post that started this all. My intent was true and my opinion has never wavered. I may be an opinionated bast*rd in their eyes, but I can support all of my claims and stay on topic. Jurassic, it should be easy to stay quiet - while you are licking your wounds. What? No comment about the actual thread...very sad indeed! Rut/R.I.T. will try to cover his tracks and admit no fault here. "Peace" seems so ironic when it closes his drivel.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Aug 24th, 2004 at 08:39 PM]

Final comment, Windy. I stand by all the statements that I have repeated over and over, as made in the linked threads that I posted above. Your opinion was, is and always will be meaningless, as far as I am personally concerned.

I also stand by the statements that I made previously that you are possibly the most unprofessional official-if you really are one, as we have no proof of that yet- that I have ever dealt with, and your name-calling, slurs and generally reprehensible behaviour are a disgrace to our officiating community.

How can you know that?
 

If you do not know football mechanics at all how can you talk about poor judgement and how it relates to football? Don't you have to understand mechanics before you understand good or bad calls and how to correct them?

Can you please spell EXAGGERATION!!!!!!!
 

You have advocated your friends calling me the "N" word, so why would I get upset over you calling me a liar?

Jack Lyman tonight talked about "helping each other" in making touch catch/no catch calls. He never once used the words "overrule" or one official has more authority than another. Not one time. He is a D1 Official and has been for several years, is he wrong? Is he an idiot? I guess we should take your "D1 experience" in baseball and just throw out his extensive experience. I know he has worked a game with 110,000 people at the game and another few million on the TV. All you can add to your waning credibility is that you work and Minor League All-Star game that no one saw. But I guess you are so big time that no one even knows it happen. I think I will take Jack Lyman's words over a clown that we cannot find on the TV.

If calling people names and not quoting anyone of significance in this sport (which is football not baseball) than you have done a good job. I guess you have some really low standards for accuracy. I guess that is all based on the truth.

You really do need counseling.


I did not realize I had to cover anything. I have yet to hear one quote from an official in the NCAA ranks in either sport you keep talking about. I have just these last few months I have heard several presentations in football from D1 Officials. I have worked with a D1 Basketball Official. I have been seen by a few D1 Officials in basketball camps. Not one ever said to overrule anyone. But it does not matter. I will get the last word. I will get the last say. You are welcome to start up another post and rant and rave about your supposed accomplishments. I just know that no one talks about any one baseball umpire the way they do about the many COA members that work football or the D1 basketball officials in our area. So if that is your claim to fame, you really have a lot of work to do.


<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_6_111.gif' alt='' border=0></a>