on a kickoff, the receiver catches the ball at about the 4 yardline and his monentum carries him into the endzone. is the ball dead? will they have the ball on the 4 yardline to start? can he advance the ball out of the endzone? how about the same situation on a punt?

How bot dem Red Sox?!
 

The kick is ended when R catches the free kick or scrimmage kick at R's 4 yard line. The ball is still live when R carries it into his end zone. Now if R gets tackled there or the ball is dead behind R's goal-line in R's possession (team or player) then it will be R's ball 1st and 10 at R's 4 yard line because of the momentum exception.

I'm giving a presentation on force (touchback and safety) tonight at our weekly meeting so hopefully I got this right...

May the force be with you...

No, the R team member is holding a live ball. If the ball happens to become dead by rule behind the goal line(e.g.: the runner goes down, fumbles the ball over the endline, etc.), then R will have the ball 1st and 10 at his own 4 as the momentum exception applies. Same goes for a punt.

The key word here is "catch" which is a live ball caught in flight (ie: never hit the ground). If the ball hits and bounces high in the air then possessed, it's not a catch and if the ball becomes dead behind the goal line it would then be a safety on both a free kick and punt as the momentum exception wouldn't apply.

The momentum rule has been modified to say something like "Momentum actually applies any covered defensive play situation."

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong in any of this. I've had a few snafus lately.

Looks like Simonds hit the "submit reply" before I did.

Re: How bot dem Red Sox?!
 

Looks right to me.
BTW: Can you fill me in on how your organization runs its training for officials? I noted your response about "weekly meeting." Do you meet once a week throughout the year or just as the FB season approaches? How are the "presentations" handled?
Thanks!

ljudge,
FED rules - ball is dead when it crosses the goal line. Rule 8-5-3a1. Momentum exception in effect.

I don't know about NCAA rules...

Speaking of training, do you guys know of a source for training videos? I looked in the back of all the books and the only videos are on rules and such. I was looking for videos on mechanics.

Any ideas?

REPLY: Not true! NF 8-5-3a1 only refers to a scrimmage/free kick crossing R's goal line. When this ball crosses the goal line, it's no longer a kick--it's a run in the receiver's possession, the kick having ended at R's 4. Mike and ljudge's rulings are true for both Fed and NCAA rules as long as the receiver <u>catches</u> the kick. As ljudge points out, in Fed, if he <u>recovers</u> the kick at the 4 and his momentum takes him into his endzone, the momentum exception is <b>not</b> in effect, and he risks a safety if he can't get the ball back into the field of play. In NCAA rules, even the recovery is subject to the momentum exception. Just one of the many differences between the two codes.

I don't quite get your response to the question regarding a player catching a kick on the 4 yard line and carrying it into the end zone. You said the ball is dead when it crosses the goal line and referenced Rule 8-5-3.a.1. Then you said momentum rule in effect.These two statements contradict each other.The referenced rule relates to a loose ball following a free kick or scrimmage kick. The question was about a ball in player possession, not loose. The momentum rule is an exception to the safety rule found in 8-5-2.a. If a defensive player catches or intercepts between the 5 yard line and the goal line the ball is still alive and he may run it out. However, if the ball becomes dead in the end zone in his teams possession or goes out of bounds in the end zone, it is not a safety and his team gets the ball where it was caught or intercepted.

wrong rule
 

oops!
I should have cited '8-5-2a EXCEPTION' - when B catches a kick between 5 yard line and his goal line, and his original momentum carries him into the endzone, the ball is dead in his teams' possession at the spot where the kick was caught.

FWIW - 8.5.3 sit B states that the ball becomes dead when the kick breaks the plane of R's goal line.

Re: wrong rule
 

### The ball does not become dead just because B's momentum takes him into the EZ. The ball is returned to the spot of catche if by rule, it subsequently becomes dead in the EZ in team-b's possession. Such as if he takes a knee in the EZ.

Exmaple 8.5.3-sit.b is a kicked ball going into the EZ. Once caught (or for that matter recovered) the KICK part of the play is over. Definitions! we gotta know them else the wrong result will be applied.

Re: wrong rule
 

REPLY: I still contend that you're misreading 8-5-2a EXCEPTION. It says <i>"When a defensive player intercepts a forward pass, fumble, backward pass by an opponent or catches a scrimmage kick or free kick between his 5-yard line and the goal line and his original momentum carries him into the end zone <b><u>where</u></b> the ball is declared dead in his team's possession or it goes out of bounds in the end zone, the ball belongs to Team B at the spot where the pass or fumble was intercepted or the kick was caught."</i>

The words "where the ball becomes dead" in the rule has the same meaning as saying "if the ball becomes dead." It's not declaring that the ball automatically becomes dead in such a situation. In such situations, you need to let the down play itself out until the ball becomes dead by rule. Then <u>if</u> the ball has become dead in B's endzone, the momentum exception kicks in and the ball is awarded to B at his 4 yard line. Consider these plays:

A’s pass is intercepted by B20 at B’s 3. His momentum carries him into his endzone where:
(a) he falls to the ground. <b>RULING</b> ME applies. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 3
(b) he is tackled in the endzone by A45. <b>RULING</b> ME applies. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 3
(c) he fumbles the ball and it rolls across the endline. <b>RULING</b> ME applies. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 3
(d) he hands the ball to his teammate, B12 who runs out of bounds in the endzone. <b>RULING</b> ME applies. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 3
(e) he sees he’s about to get tackled so he throws the ball backwards across the endline. <b>RULING</b> ME applies. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 3.
(f) He attempts to run the ball out and gets tackled at his 1. <b>RULING</b> ME does not apply. B’s ball 1-10 from B’s 1.
(g) He brings the ball back into the field of play and then circles back into the end zone where he is tackled. <b>RULING</b> ME does not apply. Safety. Award A two points.

And remember that the basic spot for any fouls that occur after the interception is the end of the run which, according to NF 10-3-3c is B’s 3 (the spot of the interception). And don’t forget to apply the all-but-one principle in such cases.

What if he is tackled and the ball comes loose and is declared dead in the field of play or rolls out of bounds on the 2 or 3 yardline? It has not become dead in the end zone - does ME still apply?

REPLY: No...the ME is only there to prevent the inequitable awarding of a safety if/when the ball becomes dead in B's endzone and his momentum (run) was what put it there. Since in your play the ball does not become dead in B's endzone or out-of-bounds in B's endzone, the ME doesn't apply. But when you think about it, B can't get hurt too much...unless A recovers the loose ball back in the field of play. But that's the chances B takes if they attempt to run it out.

Let's say B intercepts a pass at the 1 and his momentum takes him into the EZ, where almost immediately, the ball is stripped from his grasp and he fumbles (he had gotten possession). While the ball is loose, B2 holds A2 at B's 3. The ball rolls back out to B's 5 and B5 recovers it there.

If the ME is not in effect, the related run ended in the end zone, making that the basic spot for enforcement of the hold while the ball was loose, making it a safety. I don't believe any of us would ever rule safety as a)the ball wasn't recovered in the end zone and b) the foul didn't occur in the end zone.

If that's the case, then our basic spot would be the momentum spot - B's 1 - and we would go 1/2 the distance and give B the ball there 1st and 10 going out.

REPLY: AB...I knew you were headed there!<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_6.gif' alt='Brows' border=0></a>

Actually, your play demonstrates a significant gap in the rules. The Fed rules cover the situation where the run ends in the endzone and the play results in a TB (NF 10-4-5d) and they cover the equivalent situation where the run ends in the endzone and the play results in a safety (NF 10-5-2). What they <u><b>don't</b></u> cover is the situation you've presented, i.e. where the run ends in the endzone, but the ball does not become dead there. The gap only becomes significant if B fouls during his run (including the loose ball following his fumble). And you're correct that if you follow the rules as written, your play would result in a safety, not really fair to B. Some might say, "Oh well, B shouldn't have fouled."

The Fed tries to address this gap in Case Book play 10.4.5 Situation J. However, my issue is that in their ruling, they effectively <i>redefine</i> the end of the run in conflict with NF 10-3-3b, and introduce a new concept: that of a fumble being <i>"forced out of bounds."</i> [??????] And they provide no real guidelines as to when to apply these new principles. Is it just for this play? Case Book plays and ARs should be used to clarify issues that are not specifically covered in the rule book or to provide guidance on how to apply a complex rule or the interaction of multiple rules. But...I personally have a problem with an interpretation that is clearly and flagrantly in <u>conflict</u> with existing rules, especially when they don't provide any guidance on when we should set aside existing rules in favor of an interpretation. Since both the rules and the case book plays are deemed "official," which one is "more" official??

And while you're reading the Case Book, take a look at play 10.4.5 Situation I---specificaly play (b). It's not the same as the play you presented. In fact, in involves a foul by A. But it's another case where they set aside rule NF 10-3-3b in favor of something more in line with their sensibilities at the moment. Again, no guidance on when to apply that principle. How are we supposed to operate in such an environment? Sorry for the vent, but your play and the Fed's handling of it is my pet peeve.

I'd like to hear the discussion that the white hat who called safety in that situation has with the coach of B.

If the point of the rule is to avoid "cheap" safeties, then making the momentum spot the basic spot in that play (as long as B's foul isn't behind it) is the equitable ruling.

I don't have my books with me here at work today, so I can't reference your suggested case book plays, but in general, we can dispense with a few of the silly plays that take up space in the case book in favor of a few 'real world' plays that aren't specifically covered right now.

REPLY: I wouldn't want to be that white hat. And I don't really think that such a safety is "cheap" as much as it is "unfair." I think your suggestion has merit, but what if there isn't any momentum spot? What if B intercepts <u>in</u> the end zone, fumbles into the field of play, B5 holds at B's 2, and then the ball rolls out of bounds at B's 3? Remember that the final result of the play is <u>not</u> a touchback, nor would it be a safety. When you get home, take a look at those plays I referenced.

Excellent dialogue here. Bob, you and I had a similar online conversation last year and at that time you mentioned something about NFHS "redefining the end of the run." I sent an e-mail to my chapter president today who has been our rules interpreter for the past few years and he agrees that in both cases we need to rule a safety based on how the rules are written. I'm also in agreement ABoselli's ruling has merit but this is one of those rulings we'll need to make although we wouldn't feel comfortable making it. I'd go with a safety only because I felt I HAD to....I'd also ask a member of the chain crew to please warm up my car while I explained this to coach. And...probably ask for a police escort if the game was on the line.

Question?
 

What if....

B1 intercepts the ball at the B 3 yardline. His momentum carries him into the EZ. Where B1 fumbles and it is recovered by A1.

Is this a TD for A? Or does the momentum rule bring it back to B's 3 ydline?

TD
 

Touchdown for A
See 8-2-1, 8-2-1b, and 8-5-2a EXCEPTION
While the covering official should have dropped his bean bag on the B3, the momentum exception no longer applies as the one of the requirements of <b>8-5-2a Exception</b> was not met. <i>...where the ball is declared dead in his teams possession or it goes out of bounds in the endzone,...</i>
Since in your case neither of these events happened the result is a touchdown for A.

I hope this helps...

Re: TD
 

Yes it does! I like to think through things like the "what ifs" but after reading all the posts I wasn't sure...thanks again!

[Edited by tpaul on Jul 30th, 2004 at 11:00 PM]

ART. 2 . . . It is a safety when:

a. A runner carries the ball from the field of play to or across his own goal line, and it becomes dead there in his team's possession.

EXCEPTION: When a defensive player intercepts a forward pass, fumble, backward pass by an opponent or catches a scrimmage kick or free kick between his 5-yard line and the goal line, and his original momentum carries him into the end zone where the ball is declared dead in <U>his team's possession</U> or it goes out of bounds in the end zone, the ball belongs to B at the spot where the pass or fumble was intercepted or the kick was caught.


I missed that key "his team's possession."

Message for Kent Ref
 

Hi there Kent. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Our association has about 30 members. We do the semi-pro games in our county (May-July), high school (6 schools) and Pop Warner (about 15 teams). We start meeting in July every Tuesday night. A few years back we joined the California football association for the training materials (but we are officially part of the Hawaii High School Athletic Association). This year our presenter (I fill in for him sometimes) prepared an outline to cover all the basics before the start of the season (about 8 meetings). We try to cover the most important rules and then discuss the mechanics necessary to cover each type of play. So its a very basic application geared towards getting the guys to master the rules with an eye towards practical use with mechanics.

We give tests weekly but only as homework and then the guys turn them in to be graded. Then instead of wasting a lot of time reviewing the tests in class the instructor will focus on the questions that get missed a lot. These will be covered at the next class and the answers with rule references will be passed out.

Re: Message for Kent Ref
 

That sounds cool. Our associaition(rariatn) has 120 officials. We are part of a bigger group Central Jersey of (NJFOA)(about 300+ officials in CJ). We only meet once a year as Central Jersey. As the Raritan district we meet 7-8 times during the season.

I would like to see what you cover and maybe a sample test? Is that possible? I am always trying to improve and help our association. Sometimes our meetings are so boring and the samething over and over. Any other suggestions? By anybody?

Sounds good.
 

You can email me at [email protected] and I'll see what I can get for you.