Scrimmage Kicking Question

[DrMooreReferee]

K1 punts from the 50 yard line. The ball hits the ground at R's 10 yard line and rolls toward R's end zone. K2 bats the ball back towards K's goal line when the ball is on R's one yard line. The ball touches R2 at R's 5 yard line. The ball continues to roll towards K's goal line when R4 holds K6 at R's 10 yard line to prevent K6 from recovering the ball. K9 falls on the ball at R's 12 yard line.

Ruling---K may decline the holding penalty by R and retain possession of the ball at R's 12 yard line.

Please answer true or false and feel free to elaborate as to why you feel its either true or false.

Thanks for any input.


Dr.Moore

[Theisey]

False: because you are not going to allow the "forced" touching by R2 as a result of K2's legal batting. K cannot legally possess the ball in this play.

R would be given the ball at the R12 yardline and have their PSK foul enforced from there.

[ZebraRef]

Close Theisey. The Enforcement spot is R10.

[Theisey]

Thanks and you are correct. I really meant to say that the R12 is the basic spot as that is the end of the kick spot. But of course the spot of the PSK foul is behind and therefore enforced from there.

[Uncle Ernie]

Hey folks,

For NCAA, the answer would be false as well.

Are you guys sure this foul would be PSK in NFHS? In NCAA, this foul is NOT subject to PSK since B is not in possession when the down ends. Therefore, I think the only options are to take the ball at one of the illegal touching spots or have a 10 yard penalty enforced from the previous spot.

Hard to say what would happen, since the down and distance isn't noted.

Can someone confirm this about the NFHS or am I barking up the wrong tree.

[Theisey]

Why do you say that team-B (NCAA) or team-R (NF) is not in possession when the down has ended?

The forced touching by the receiving team as a result of a legal bat does not allow team A/K to keep the ball. When the down is over, the ball goes over to team R/B.

[ljudge]

I was in agreement with everything until I read Uncle Ernie's post. Are we sure it's PSK? The rule says "K does not have posession of the ball when the down ends." It doesn't say AFTER the down ends, but WHEN the down ends.

First touching doesn't apply in this case because after the first touch R fouled which cancels FT.

I'm now thinking this is a foul during loose-ball play.

Bob M - are you out there????

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by ljudge
I was in agreement with everything until I read Uncle Ernie's post. Are we sure it's PSK? The rule says "K does not have posession of the ball when the down ends." It doesn't say AFTER the down ends, but WHEN the down ends.

First touching doesn't apply in this case because after the first touch R fouled which cancels FT.

I'm now thinking this is a foul during loose-ball play.

Bob M - are you out there????

REPLY: I'm here...and I'm in agreement with Tom Heisey that for both NF and NCAA, R/B is in legal possession of the ball (i.e. they are next entitled to put the ball in play by snap or free kick), and therefore PSK does apply. I believe that this is the intention of both rule codes although the Fed, in particular, does not define possession of a dead ball in any meaningful way. As far as the first touching for Fed, R's right is cancelled if they touch the ball and thereafter foul or if the penalty for any foul committed during the down is accepted. Since it was K's bat that knocked the ball into R, R's touching is ignored. So R didn't touch the ball prior to their foul. And if K wishes to accept the penalty for R's PSK foul, R cannot take the ball at either of the first touch spots (R's 1 and R's 12). The NCAA illegal ("first") touching privilege of R is also cancelled if the penalty for any foul committed during the down is accepted or if there are offsetting fouls. So the result would be the same.

[Uncle Ernie]

Hi Bob,

Normally, I agree with you. However, I am going to disagree with you here on the NCAA part. IMHO the rule is quite clear. It says, "When Team A does not have possession of the ball when the down ends." In this case they do have possession when the down ends. The ball is not turned over until after the down ends.

This type of question always pops up on the CCA test and there is a difference between having possession when the down ends and gaining possession by rule when the down is complete.

I must apologize for my earlier post, I messed up the results. You guys are correct about the illegal touching. The only option I can see here is to enforce the foul from the previous spot.

[Bob Floyd]

I agree with Bob M. this is a PSK situation under NF rules. K is not in possession at the end of the down. When K fell on the ball at the twelve yard line this was the second illegal touch, the first having occurred at the one yard line. This touching caused the ball to become dead, thus securing possession of the ball has no significance. (Football Fundamentals III.4 Dead Ball)

[Theisey]

Originally posted by Uncle Ernie
Hi Bob,

Normally, I agree with you. However, I am going to disagree with you here on the NCAA part. IMHO the rule is quite clear. It says, "When Team A does not have possession of the ball when the down ends." In this case they do have possession when the down ends. The ball is not turned over until after the down ends.

This type of question always pops up on the CCA test and there is a difference between having possession when the down ends and gaining possession by rule when the down is complete.

I must apologize for my earlier post, I messed up the results. You guys are correct about the illegal touching. The only option I can see here is to enforce the foul from the previous spot.

### That may be what the wording says, but what the meaning is as well as years of interpretations that the ball must belong to team-B when the down ends. That is certainly the case.
Yes, this does pop up on CCA exams and every time the result remains the same. PSK applies.

[DrMooreReferee]

This is some really great discussion. I put this question on here because I knew that it would spark a debate on PSK enforcement.

There are lots of guys on this great board that know much more than me. I have been a white hat in S.C. for only 3 years. So, I certainly recognize the many years of experience here on this board.

Let me tell ya why I agree with those who believe this is a PSK type play. If we look at the play and take everything into consideration as it is right up to the point where K falls on it at the 12, then we change it and say that the ball rolls out of bounds at the 12. I think everyone would agree then that it is indeed a PSK foul. However, If the ball went out of bounds then R would not literally be in possession of the ball. But we all know that its R's ball because we will ignore the touch by R which was caused by the bat by K. So, why would we not also ignore the fact that K has fell on a ball that can't possibly belong to him? When I think of it this way it makes perfect sense to me that it would be a PSK foul by R and that they would get to keep the ball after enforcement from the 10.

But thanks to everyone for their input. This board is so good for me as exam time approaches.


Dr.Moore

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Uncle Ernie
Hi Bob,

Normally, I agree with you. However, I am going to disagree with you here on the NCAA part. IMHO the rule is quite clear. It says, "When Team A does not have possession of the ball when the down ends." In this case they do have possession when the down ends. The ball is not turned over until after the down ends.

This type of question always pops up on the CCA test and there is a difference between having possession when the down ends and gaining possession by rule when the down is complete.

I must apologize for my earlier post, I messed up the results. You guys are correct about the illegal touching. The only option I can see here is to enforce the foul from the previous spot.

REPLY: Uncle Ernie, I can appreciate your position on this, but I'd like to pose three NCAA play situations for your consideration:

A, 4/10 from midfield. While A12's scrimmage kick is in flight, B45 holds a K player at B's 35. Then:
(a) the ball bounces and rolls out of bounds untouched at B's 10, or
(b) the ball is bouncing untouched at B's 10 where K22 grabs the ball
(c) the ball rolls to a stop at B's 15 with no player attempting to secure possession. Official blows it dead.

If I'm not mistaken, in all of these cases, K is technically in possession at the moment the down ends. R is only "awarded" possession after the down ends. However, in my opinion, all three scenarios qualify for PSK enforcement. I believe that's true for both Federation and NCAA rules.


Rom Gilbert seems to agree. Check out play #2 on this web page. It's dedicated to PSK. http://members.atlantic.net/~gilbertr/p-0203.htm

Also, take a look at Play #10. It's another case where A is technically "in possession" at the moment the ball becomes dead.

Also notice that Rom uses the words "in legal possession" to describe the principle. That is, who's next entitled to put the ball in play. That's how I understand that you determine "possession" for the purposes of PSK.