Foul on Last Timed Down

[ljudge]

Did anyone get the Aug. edition of Referee? There's a case play on page 18 that has me a bit confused. I usually take their case plays as gospel but I'm not so sure this time....

"Play:

With 1 second remaining in the 4th quarter, team A trails,7-6. Team A has the ball, 4th and 10 on the 50 yardline. QB A1, finding no open receiver, decides to run. A1 scrambles and advances to team B's five yardline. Realizing he will not make the end zone, he throws a desperation forward pass. Ineligible A2 catches the ball in team B's end zone.

Ruling:

(NFHS) Team A is guilty of an illegal forward pass. If the penality is accepted, it is 5 yards enforced from the spot of the pass. The penalty also includes a loss of down. Because the foul occurred on the last timed down of a period, team B wil run one play from its own 10 yardline. Note that team A cannot be flagged for offensive pass interference because that penalty only applies to legal forward passes."

My interpretation:

I believe A still has the ball for an untimed down. A has made the line to gain after enforcement and the loss of down is of no significance. If the foul had been declined it would be a TD so B wouldn't choose that. So, I have A for an untimed down 1st and Goal at the 10.

Actually, I thought I read this before so if there's a post out there mentioning this please direct me to it. But more importantly, is the ruling wrong or am I missing something???

[STEVED21]

Ljudge,

I believe you are correct. It would be A's ball since they gained the LTG.

It seems they make an error every now & then on these case plays.

[Bob M.]

ljudge...I'm certain you're correct! At least they got one thing right...A cannot be guilty of OPI.

[Uncle Ernie]

Hey fella's...

What does the NCAA answer say and what are the rule references? We are thinking that in NCAA the game is over. It can't be a touchdown, since the pass is illegal. So if B declines, we are thinking that it would be A's ball at the spot of the illegal pass, but aren't sure.

Thanks
UE

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Uncle Ernie
Hey fella's...

What does the NCAA answer say and what are the rule references? We are thinking that in NCAA the game is over. It can't be a touchdown, since the pass is illegal. So if B declines, we are thinking that it would be A's ball at the spot of the illegal pass, but aren't sure.

Thanks
UE

REPLY UE, it says... "NCAA rules agree except that, ordinarily, A2 would be guilty of illegal touching. However, illegal touching only applies to a legal forward pass (3-3-2a; 7-3-2a; 7-3-3)"

[KWH]

Once again Referee supplies the wrong answer to their own play. It is funny that they provided this play as an example to accompany their own article "RULE 5: THE FORGOTTEN RULE!"
Why is it funny you ask?
Because the answer to this play is found in Rule 5. Specifically 2004 NFHS 5-2-5. Also see 2004 NFHS Case Book 5.2.2 SITUATION B

The proper ruling on this play is as follows:
The only foul on this play is an Illegal Forward Pass by A.
Therefore;
B can deline the penalty and the result of the play is a touchdown for A, Final Score A12 - B7 and Game Over.
OR,
B can accept the A foul, the five yard penalty places the ball on the B10 yard line and the period is extended for one untimed down. The down and distance is first and goal for A. (No clock - untimed down)
My crystal ball says the likely final score will be: A9 - B7

Remember: The loss of down part of the penalty has no significance since the succeeding spot is beyond the line to gain and a new series is awarded.

Message to ljudge:
1) Don't believe everything printed in REFEREE Magazine. Their proofreaders have gone down hill and in this case their incorrect ruling effected the outcome of a game.

Message to Uncle Ernie:
I believe the result is exactly the same in NCAA. I will have to reasearch to find the correct rule and AR.

[Edited by KWH on Jul 23rd, 2004 at 11:51 AM]

[jumpmaster]

So A2 would only be flagged for ineligable downfield, IF the pass had been legal? NFHS 7-5-6.

[ljudge]

If the pass had been legal you would have OPI as well.

BTW - I sent an e-mail to Referee and they got back to me indicating this was incorrectly published. It's no biggie. The guy was pretty good about it.

[KWH]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
So A2 would only be flagged for ineligable downfield, IF the pass had been legal? NFHS 7-5-6.

You can not have an ineligible down field on a running play. NFHS 7-5-6
You can not have pass interference on a running play. NFHS 7-5-7
The only thing you can have then is an illegal forward pass which is enforced from the end of the run / spot of the foul. NFHS 7-5-2b
The loss of down aspect of his penalty is of no significance as the line to gain has still been reached following enforcement! NFHS 5-2-2

Result of the play: A gets a chance to win the game by commiting a foul!!!

FYI - This situation was addressed at the NFHS Rules Committee meeting in January. A proposed change was to make the Loss of Down aspect enforceable in this situation. It was voted down by the members because they way this particlar proposal was written it would effect other situations other than this one. The rule change proposer noted that "in the south" coaches are teaching this move to players!
While it did not pass this time around, it was however, made clear to many members that this is a big hole in the rules. I expect to see it addressed again!

FYI - REFEREE Magazine (Jeff Stern) has admitted today via a telephone call they "kicked" the call on this play and they will be printing a correction in a future issue!



[Edited by KWH on Jul 23rd, 2004 at 03:37 PM]

[rdfox]

Let me give you another scenario...one in which A does not have to foul.

Twelve seconds left in the game...3rd and 10 at mid-field. A is down by two with no more timeouts. Instead of a long "Hail Mary" pass, or even a pass to the sidelines (like everyone expects), A1 throws underneath the coverage to A2 at B's 25 in the middle of the field. A2, with only three seconds left, deliberately throws the ball slightly backwards and out-of-bounds at the 28.

The clock legally stops and the offense gets 1st & 10 from the 28.

[chiefgil]

The loss of down part of the penalty has no significance since the succeeding spot is beyond the line to gain and a new series is awarded.

NFHS Casebook 5.2.2 pg 39

[Tundra Ref]

Chiefgil, I think you missed the fact that it wasn't a forward pass. No penalty here, it is simply A's ball where it went OOB.

[PiggSkin]

Originally posted by KWH
FYI - This situation was addressed at the NFHS Rules Committee meeting in January. A proposed change was to make the Loss of Down aspect enforceable in this situation. It was voted down by the members because they way this particlar proposal was written it would effect other situations other than this one. The rule change proposer noted that "in the south" coaches are teaching this move to players!
[/B]

So are you saying it would be second down..? In this situation, I can't see that it would be much of a deterrent... It would be analogous to spiking the ball...

BTW: Is this handled the same way in the NFL..? Or do they have some mechanism for ensuring that this doesn't happen..?

[Bob Floyd]

Originally posted by PiggSkin

So are you saying it would be second down..? In this situation, I can't see that it would be much of a deterrent... It would be analogous to spiking the ball...

BTW: Is this handled the same way in the NFL..? Or do they have some mechanism for ensuring that this doesn't happen..? [/B]

I'll respond to PiggSkin's question regarding NFL rules in the above situations. A backward pass going out of bounds during the last two minutes of either half stops the clock, however, the clock is restarted with the ready for play. Additionally, a team is not permitted to conserve time inside of one minute by committing several acts, two of which are an illegal forward pass thrown from beyond the line and a backward pass out of bounds. The penalty is loss of five yards, plus, since these fouls are committed by the offense, 10 seconds are run off the game clock and the clock starts on the ready for play. If less than 10 seconds remain in the half the game is over. If the offense has timeouts left they may use it in lieu of the 10 second runoff.

[KWH]

Originally posted by PiggSkin

So are you saying it would be second down..? In this situation, I can't see that it would be much of a deterrent... It would be analogous to spiking the ball...
[/B]

NO!
Starting a series on 2nd and 10 is part of the issue, was included in the rules discussion, and assisted in getting this proposal defeated.
The proposed rule change allowed the Referee to include a loss of down to the penalty in this situation. The intent of the proposer was not to allow A another play and because of the loss of down would end the game. It was voted down because it would not fit and would cause confusion. (Looks like they were correct.)
Again, the proposers intent was not to allow A the opportunity to gain by fouling. Which IS a good intent!
While I would think all of us on this forum agree this is a hole in the rules since A is allowed to win the game by fouling, the rule proposed this time may have repaired this problem while creating seven others.
If any of you can think of a way to resolve this (10 second runoff for A fouls in the last one minute of a half (with clock on the ready) seems to resolve it) I would suggest you propose it to your state office for submission to the NFHS.