does anyone have a link to signals used by wing officials? i am looking for unbalanced line, punching off, proper down, etc.

-second question-
when you indicate second down, do you use your index and pointing finger, or your index and pinky finger. Why?

1st Question:
the NF handbook has a list of signals. My crew doesn't use those (i did not either when I was on the wing). For unbalanced, we tap our thigh on the side of the "heavy" side. Also, our U will signal the same side for me (R) i should see it though, and the BJ with a 1/2 upright with his arms, again showing the "heavy" side. Just something we/I have done since I began. I do not know who tahugt it to me though.

2nd Question: I/we use our index and pinky. I feel that it is eaiser to differ from a 1st down. 2 dingers next to each other, or close. This gives room between them, and noone has to worry about making sure. We also add the ring finger for 3rd. Again, it is just something I have always done. Must have seem it somewhere in an NFL/NCAA game and it stuck wiht me.

The most commonly used "unofficial" signals in our area....

Unbalanced line is a hand on the cheek by the wing man with the heavy side

Player closest to the wing man is off the line of scrimmage is an arm straight out to the side. This may or may not be acknowledged by the other wing. If so, some of our guys will tap the bill of their cap, or may touch their opposite shoulder. If both wing men have an arm out, then we're counting to make sure there is only one running back.

All officials who count eleven players on the side they are responsible for counting will give a fist straight out or down. If given up, it may be confused with the fourth down signal.

Since I started officiating football 18 years ago, I always used my index and pinky fingers to indicate second down. I agree with sm_bbcoach that it is easier to differentiate. But I changed this year after noticing I was one of the few remaining that still did it that way.

Imagine the response the officials working a Texas Longhorn game would get by using that signal.

R & U signals.
 

We use these when working at R and U:

Closed fist held shoulder height and slightly away from body: I've counted 11 players on offense.

Holding open hands in front of chest: I've counted 10 or less players on offense.

One hand on top of head: I've counted 12 or more players on offense. Then the referee and I will both nod our heads, then when we see each other reach for our flags, we throw our flags at the same time (or at least try to, LOL).

Rolling fists in front of chest: The offensive team is going for it (not lining up in scrimmage kick formation) on 4th down or going for 2 points on the try.

Making a triangle with our thumbs and fingers and holding this above our heads: The offensive team is going to attempt a field goal or extra point. As the umpire I will also try to make eye contact with the LJ (5 man crew) or the BJ, SJ and FJ while making this signal.

Then of course there are the ready for play signals I use to help remind the Referee what is happening with the clock on the next play: rolling my index finger in a small circle while telling him the next down to let him know that the clock starts on the ready for play whistle. Or making a snapping gesture with my hand to let him know that the clock will start on the snap.

Would love to hear about what else is used out there. In our state, they give us a list of required supplemental signals to be used for the play-offs so we decided just to start using these for the regular season as well.

Almost forgot, we also like to cross our arms across our chests on 4th down to remind us that the clock will stop at the end of the next play.

[Edited by Mike Simonds on May 9th, 2004 at 10:53 PM]

The one I wished more people used is where the guy who sees the tee coming in for a FG or a try can let the LJ know so he doesn't have to do a dead sprint to get under his post at the last minute.

I always like to make sure everybody knows that the clock will stop no matter what happens when there's a fourth down play. We don't have a signal, though, I just yell it.

We have a mechanics committee who looked at what the book recommends, what other orgs recommended, etc. and has adopted the following...

In all 3 situations the I'm referring to players who are on the LOS.

1) 3 players between you and Snapper on LOS - hand on belt buckle

2) 2 players between you and snapper on LOS - "roll away" same signal as false start

3) 4 players between you and snapper on LOS - "roll to" same signal as false start except roll opposite way (toward you)

Same as #2) when only 1 player between you and snapper we'll roll away and put up the #1. We rarely see that.

Always punch back when closest player is off the line.

Some officials aren't exactly in love with these recommended mechanics but they work well especially for newer guys. Part of the logic was the signal was much more visible to the entire crew and is easier to see from across the field.

Do you guys punch backwards on a backward pass?

I'm not a big fan of "supplemental signals".
Of course at the "U" we don't see many anyways.
If they are really so useful- they should show up in
the mechanics manuals. Till then, if you are doing
your job- they may be "superfluous" mechanics.

ABoselli...good question. Our guys are trained to punch back on a backwards pass but in our crew my Referee asks that we don't do it. He doesn't want somebody punching back and another official signaling incomplete and blowing the whistle. We never had a problem doing it that way and it worked but feel more comfortable using the signal. I'm moving to R in 2004 and will probably ask my crews to use the signal.

ljudge:

Isn't this a little to much to be doing in the few seconds from set to snap? What does it look like when you have 4 on your side and the man in the back field? I picture a basketball official calling a walk and pointing "going this way" Does it really matter? The R & U are counting to 11 and should signal with the closed fist. Then you just need to count the backfield. If you have more than 4, itt's an illegal formation. I've worked with guys from other areas that have signals like these. IMO its just too much signaling before the snap.

I was thinking the same thing.

I don't see these type of signals from D-1 NCAA or NFL why do we need them in high school games.

Short answer... aside from the widest man off the line punch back, you don't need most of them at all.
Long answer... would involve those that live to change mechanics and I don't intend to ruffle anyones feathers.

Why even punch the widest man off?

To identify eligibles.

JasonTX
As a Linesman I want to know if my Line Judge has the player closest to him on or off the line. If both wings are punching a player off the line both had better be double counting backs. I don’t want to guess that a wideout is off the line, throw a flag for a six man line, and then when I report the foul have the LJ tell me that his guy was on the line. This is just a matter of communication between wings.

ScottV
You would be surprised at the amount of not verbal communication the goes on between officials at the NCAA and NFL level. Please remember that at D1 and NFL games, it is darn near impossible to hear due to crowd noise. You generally can not pick up the signals on TV. When you go to a NCAA game pick one position and watch him all game. You might see a wing pat his leg or tug on his flag prior to the snap. He just sent a message to the other wing.

Dale Smith

[/B][/QUOTE]
JasonTX
As a Linesman I want to know if my Line Judge has the player closest to him on or off the line. If both wings are punching a player off the line both had better be double counting backs. I don’t want to guess that a wideout is off the line, throw a flag for a six man line, and then when I report the foul have the LJ tell me that his guy was on the line. This is just a matter of communication between wings.

Dale Smith
[/B][/QUOTE]

We just touch the bill of our hat to signal that we have 3 players on the line on my side of the snappper. If we got 4 or 2 then we put a hand on side of face to signal unbalanced. Whatever works best and this is always things that should be discussed during the pregame so that both wings are on the same page. Bottom line is to make sure you got 7 players on the LOS and whatever signal is used will work for me.

You a wing man? If not, it helps me and my partner on the other side easily determine when we have four or more off the line (in conjuction the "I've got 11 from the referee).

I don't work 5-man mechanics anymore but I recall it did at one time, maybe still does have signifigance for the Bjudge key.

Stop the Clock Signal
 

At the end of a play when the Clock Stops, we tell each other before the play that it is AUTOMATIC.(Stopping)
Like on 4th down!
We use a signal to remind the Crew;I can not remember it in MAY! It works well.
It was something I learned at my first game!
If I knew that in High School we could have all
sprinted to the Officials at the end of the play to avoid
them from signaling the clock guy/girl to stop!

Can you really tell the difference between a "forward" and "reverse" roll from across the field?

I was also thinking the same thing, even from close I would have to think about what it actually was.

Why are some associations so worried about unbalanced lines? Is there some importance to it? As a LM/LJ where I am we check the backfield, and thats all.

We also use
- Punch back for off the line
- Grab the hat for on the line - but it is not mandatory
- Fists crossed over chest to indicate 4th down - clock will stop
- Wiggle both index finger to remind about 'Double Sticks'
- U or R will do a 'roll forward' signal (like for a False Start) to indicate that O is 'going for it' - pay out 4th down instead of kick, or an obvious 2 point PAT, obvious onside FK

and some of our older refs pat their beanbag on 4th down to remind about the fumble rule.

James

Primarily I work R, but on occasion I will work on the wing. Our chapter used to punch back, but we got away from that since counting the backs doesn't guarantee a legal formation. Of course you can use the "I've got 11" from the R but around here that signal means "I've got 11 or less" Maybe there should be a change in rules that will allow 6 players on the line as long as there were no more than 4 in the backfield.

You don't have a signal for having 11 players ONLY? Most crews use fist at shoulder height. I make sure my wings acknowledge the signal. If we have fewer than eleven, I signal with an open hand (like signaling "5"). If we have more than eleven, I signal with two thumbs up, make eye contact with my umpire, then throw the flag.

simplify
 

My reply is not necessarily directed to the above poster, but his message is the epitomy of this thread.

The manual states, "Poorly executed or unauthorized signals serve only to confuse the situation and impair communication." Although this statement is generally regarding signals used for the sake of the coaches & fans, it also has some implication toward crew signals.
When I started 3 years ago doing lower level games, there were as many different signals as the number of games I did. I never knew from one game to the next what the wing across from me was trying to communicate. For lower-level here, we don't have much of a pre-game; but even if you have one, the newer guys are going to see something different each time they go out. I have no problem with tapping fists one on top of another to signal "we're stopping the clock after this play, no matter what, because it's 4th down" if that's what your association preaches. What I take issue with is using a signal prescribed by the manual for something that it's not intended for. Fists crossed over chest is double stakes, nothing else. Rolling fists between the U & R should be for protecting the snapper, not a non-kicking situation.

We need to be concernd with unbalanced lines because they create players "carrying the brick"--situations where, if nothing else, it's not a bad idea to double-check your line count by HL and numbering & ineligibles by U.

"Punching off" doesn't help anyone unless you're a LJ and your HL actually counts all the players on the line by himself. I find myself doing it anyway--it helps me remember to identify eligibles on my side.

pat their beanbag? what fumble rule? That's NCAA, or it used to be anyway.

That team-A has 11 signal means just that.... team-A has 11. It is not used up this way for anything else. Therefore the formation can be gauranteed.
Coaches had been sending in film time after time complaining about covered receivers or not enough players on the line. That has been reduced drastically by the punch back and use of team-A has 11.
If you have a better way that works for you, by all means continue to use it. I'll not complain.

Re: simplify
 

(snip)..
What I take issue with is using a signal prescribed by the manual for something that it's not intended for. Fists crossed over chest is double stakes, nothing else. Rolling fists between the U & R should be for protecting the snapper, not a non-kicking situation.
...(snip)
[/B][/QUOTE]

If appears you are new to officating and even this board. The above two officials communications signals are used totally differently if your game is NF vs NCAA. So while you can take issue, be careful who you take issue with. This is not just an NCAA only nor NF only place to discuss rules and mechanics. Many posters here work high school games under NCAA rules as that's what their state allows.

Besides many rule differences, there are many mechanics differences as well.

Re: simplify
 

True. We work NCAA rules, but there are quite a few deviations (I'm in Germany). I've learned quite a bit about the rule differences between NCAA and NF, but this is the first discussion I've read about mechanics differences. I hadn't really thought there would be many differences, but obviously there are.
Even more confusing, we all seem to use the same signals, but have different emphasis.

James

KISS
 

I lean towards simplification and not overdoing the mechanics as well as striving for consistency across our community.

I've often wondered why the mechanics are different between high school and college with the exception of those mandated by the NCAA vs. FED codes (e.g. 4th down fumble rule). Certainly, 6 or 7 man mechanics vs. 4 or 5 man mechanics play a role, but when I read through the above threads and see how many mechanics some of you use, my hat is off to you (even though I personally think it's way too many). Heck, I have a tough time counting the players when I'm working the flanks!

Pretty soon there will be a mechanic for a wing back that starts in motion, then resets for one second, and then goes in motion the other direction, and then resets, and then motion again. It will be the index finger moved quickly up and down across the lips while you make a mumbling sound! ;)

While we're at it, how about other "NEW" mechanics to add to the arsenal. We might as well have some fun with this.

Good replies gentlemen. Yes, I agree it's a lot to do, and frankly, it may look a little weird. And yes, Mark I see your point as well. In my original reply I mentioned these mechanics came as recommendations from our mechanics committee. Over the years (before I was an official) they tried various things and found what did and didn't work. They landed on a set of mechanics that I was trained on. To Marks question (which is valid) it's not difficult at all to find out which way an official is rolling because we give and look for signals from each other and talk about in pre-game even though we work every week together.

Some veteran officials don't like this at all. I recall a NCAA linesman saying "WHAAAAT?" in one of the meetings. Any way, my linesman and me came up together as cadets and were asked by the same Referee to be on a crew together. So we were taught to use these when we were originally trained and have been using them ever since. Again, I'm sure it definitely looks and sounds weird but for us it works. The point is we're always in active communication on every play so we're actively looking for signals from the other guy. I'm not trying to "sell" the concept per-se just sharing what happens to work for us.

Great (valid) questions.

Re: Re: simplify
 

Theisey & others:
Thanks for your warm welcome ;)
It took some hard work to figure out that I'm "new", to be sure. Consider the fact that I told everyone in my post that I started 3 years ago and that this was my first post here (although I've posted on other sites). :rolleyes:
I'm surprised at Theisey's hasty response because I read this & other forums, and can tell anyone that cares how he is one of the "top guys". No hard feelings, eh? :)

Here's what I'm looking at and don't mean to quote anyone out of context here, but this is a snapshot of this thread:
does anyone have a link to signals...
the NF handbook has a list...
In our state, they give us a list of...signals...
...why do we need them in high school games
...you don't need most of them at all...
...would involve those that live to change mechanics...

I realize that the forum is open to all levels, but this thread, like many others in the forum, insinuates Federation rules & mechanics. If we speak in generalities, you'll have even the best senior officsils scratching their heads because someone in a thread talked about how the defense scored 2 points on a try last Friday night, etc.

Furthermore, my post quoted from the Fed. manual--so my statement and examples stand pat about using signals for something that they weren't prescribed for.

James brings up another very good point here--the one I was trying to make. Using the same signals for different things, especially in the same geographical area, make for confusion and a breeding ground for crew error. Take it from a "newbie"--the simpler the better. Eye contact needs stressed more--we pay so much attention to what signs we're being given that we forget to actually LOOK at each other.

Hope that made sense. :cool:

J Ransom