Well guys it’s time again for UE monthly quiz. I can’t believe it’s April already. My how time flies when you’re having fun.

1. A 4/16 A1. The score is A14-B13. A4's punt is caught by B29 on A's 26 after a valid fair catch signal. During the down, B63 blocked A44 in the back on A's 28 and A74 blocked B95 below the waist on A's 22. Time expired in the fourth quarter during the down.
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2. A 4/G B48. The score is A28-B28. QB A17's legal forward pass is caught by A82. A82 advances to B's 4 and fumbles. The fumble rolls through B's end zone. B79 roughs the passer. Two seconds remain in the fourth quarter.
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3. A 3/G B3. The score is A28-B28 with nine seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A8's field goal attempt is blocked. A78 recovers on B's 9 and advances to B's 2 where he is downed. The kick does not cross the neutral zone. Three seconds remain on the clock.
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4. A 1/10 B12. The ball is on the left hash. QB A12 on B's 19 and throws the ball beyond the neutral zone to an area where no eligible receivers are located. During A12's scramble, A67 held on B's 15.
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5. A 2/4 B8. QB A18 hands off to A44 on B's 13. A44 runs to B's 6 near the sideline where B55 hits him causing the ball to come loose. B38 then deflects the bouncing ball and B12 controls the ball while touching the end line.
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6. A 3/12 B18. A16's legal forward pass is airborne when B34 grabs A88's jersey on B's 13, thus limiting A88's ability to jump for the pass.
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7. A TRY B3. The snap is high after which A4 places and holds the ball for a place kick for A6 who is in position to kick the ball. B96 bats the ball from A4's hand, recovers and advances across A's goal line.
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8. A 4/12 A18. A8's punt is caught on B's 47 by B21 who advances to A's 46 and fumbles. A94 recovers on A's 48 while grounded. Team A had six players on the line at the snap. B41 blocked A83 in the back on A's 44 during the punt.
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As a side note to my good friend Bob M from last months quiz. There was some debate as to where to spot the ball on the roughing the passer play. As you may recall I tacked on the yardage from the spot of the recovered fumble. My thinking is we give A the benefit of all the legal yards gained for this foul as that seems to be the intent of the exception to this rule. The collective options of the others in my association tend to agree with me.

This seems too easy. DPI Half the distance, auto firstdown. A 1/G B9. Am I missing somthing?

Yes you are. Besides the clock status, what about 1,2,3,4,5,7 and 8 ? ;)

Hey Jimmy, does Dan know you're stealing his tests?

No Jim he dosn't. And I hope you dont slip and mention it ;)

REPLY: Jim, take a look at the 2003 Case Book, Play 9.4.3 Situation D on page 65. The Federation's collective opinion (for better or worse) disagrees. And there's is the one that counts...unfortunately sometimes.<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_107.gif' alt='Teethy' border=0></a>
I think that the NCAA's interpretation agrees with yours, i.e. that you enforce from the spot of the recovery. But for some strange reason, Fed doesn't.

Jim, please reread the case you cited. It agrees that the enforcement is at the spot of the fumble, not the recovery. ie. 15yards back from the 19 is the 34, not the 30.

Sorry, should have said Bob....

To Bob M.
 

I'll bet you were responding to J.N. not me huh?

Re: To Bob M.
 

REPLY: Yeah umpump...it was intended for Jim Neil. Now I'm really confused. I thought that Jim was saying that enforcement should be tacked on from the spot of <b>recovery.</b> I understood, and I think the Fed Case Book play substantiates, that it should be tacked on from the spot of the <b>fumble.</b>

Bob, that's the way I read Jimmy's message to you also.

LOL... now I’m WHY confused ...LOL...... who’s on first?

(I’ll be back with a serious response when I stop laughing)

Jimmy, the bottom line is that both Bob and I agree. The correct enforcement spot....BY RULE... is the spot of the fumble.
Now if thefumble is recovered by a player on his feet you start a new run....which may or may not be the last run for this rule purpose

I'll take a stab at these. NCAA rules. Guys, please be gentle :)

>> Either 1) Offset and replay 4th down or 2) B 1/10 @ A38 (PSK spot is A28). Either way, the period is extended and the clock is on the snap.
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>> A 1/G @ B2. Clock on snap as A was awarded a 1st down.
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>> A 4/G @ B2, ready
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>> A 2/22 @ B24, snap. The holding would be declined and the intentional grounding enforced -5 from the spot & LOD.
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>> B 1/10 @ B20, snap. Impetus not changed by B's deflection. A responsible for ball in end zone. B12 just helps ball become dead.
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>> A 1/10 @ B13, snap. DPI is a spot foul in this scenario as foul was <15 yds from LOS and ball was snapped outside the B17 so the rule governing snaps at B17 or inside do not apply.
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>> 1 point for B scoring a safety on A's try.
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>> A 4/12 @ A18. Offsetting penalties on the play. PSK not in affect because A ends up with possession of ball.
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>>>>>>> How badly did I kick these plays??

Can't tell you how much these monthly quizzes are appreciated. It helps keep me focused on the rules. Please keep sharing them, James!


NF: B has options. Decline A's penalty. B's penalty is then enforced as a PSK foul (from the A-28). 1/10 for B from the A-38. Accept A's penalty and fouls will be paired as double fouls and down will be replayed. No matter what option B selects, there WILL be an untimed down played.

NCAA: This is my first attempt at trying to answer from the NCAA perspective so please take it easy on me ;)

First go to B. They can accept the penalty for A's foul and both fouls will offset and the down will be replayed with an untimed down. OR they can decline A's foul and then team A has options. Team A can then either accept or decline the penalty for B's foul. If they accept, B will be moved back 10 yards from the PSK spot (A-28) for a 1/10 from A-38 and an untimed down will be played. If they decline, game is over.

Before I go any further, is this correct?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears

Quote:

Before I go any further, is this correct?

REPLY: Looks good to me Mike...but what do I know?

For NF, it's a tough decision for B. They obviously can't accept the penalty for A's foul since A will just kneel or sneak it into the line on the untimed down and the game will be over. But, since B did make a fair catch, they can attempt a free kick in an attempt to win the game, or can run a play from scrimmage.

For NCAA, again B cannot decline since A will also decline and that's the ball game! But if they accept, they do not have the free kick option like they would in Fed. Their only choice is a play from scrimmage.

OK. Let's give #2 a try from NFHS and NCAA codes.

Under both codes, results of the play is a touchback for B (under both codes) so Team A is going to accept the penalty for the foul.


NF: Enforcement of the RTP will be from the B-4 because that is the end of the run and there wasn't a change of possession during the down. 1/10 for Team A from B-2. Clock starts on the snap.

NCAA: Enforcement of the roughing will also be from the B-4. 1/10 for Team A from the B-2. My question is in regards to the clock. Clock starts on the RFP because ball was fumbled and became dead in advance of the spot of the fumble???? If so, then Team A must get the next play off before time expires or the period will end. Is this correct? I am just starting to dig into the NCAA rulebook.

REPLY: I haven't looked at all of them but here are some initial thoughts...

#2 - Might want to reconsider the clock...or at least the reason for starting it on the snap.

#3 - Reconsider the clock. A <u>legal</u> kick play just took place. (By the way, in Federation, unlike NCAA, there was no reason to stop the clock. It should have continued to run.)

#7 - How many points should be awarded to Team B? Remember, they scored what would normally be a TD during a try down. See NCAA 8-1-1 and 8-3-1.

Looks like I’ll have agreed with you guys about the enforcement spot on the RTP play. But I don’t agree that it’s the fairest spot as it denies A yardage that they’ve legally gained. I guess I can get some consolation from the fact that the NCAA code agrees with my ruling. I thank both Jim S and Bob M for straitening me out. . Anyway, time to move on. Here are my NF answers for Aprils quiz.


1. A 4/16 A1. The score is A14-B13. A4's punt is caught by B29 on A's 26 after a valid fair catch signal. During the down, B63 blocked A44 in the back on A's 28 and A74 blocked B95 below the waist on A's 22. Time expired in the fourth quarter during the down.
B has a choice of declining A’s foul and having theirs enforced under PSK. Or they can accept creating a double foul replaying the down. One way or the other there’s going to be one un-timed down.
Accept; A 4/16 @ A-1, un-timed
Decline; B1/10 @ A-38, un-timed
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2. A 4/G B48. The score is A28-B28. QB A17's legal forward pass is caught by A82. A82 advances to B's 4 and fumbles. The fumble rolls through B's end zone. B79 roughs the passer. Two seconds remain in the fourth quarter

Accept A 1/G @ B-2 clock on snap
Decline B 1/10 @ B-20 clock on first legal touching
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3. A 3/G B3. The score is A28-B28 with nine seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A8's field goal attempt is blocked. A78 recovers on B's 9 and advances to B's 2 where he is downed. The kick does not cross the neutral zone. Three seconds remain on the clock.

A 4/G @ B-2 clock on the ready
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4. A 1/10 B12. The ball is on the left hash. QB A12 on B's 19 and throws the ball beyond the neutral zone to an area where no eligible receivers are located. During A12's scramble, A67 held on B's 15

Multiple foul on Team A
Accept for intentional grounding; A 2/22 @ B-24 clock on snap
Accept for holding; A 1/27 @ B-29 clock on snap
Decline; A 2/17 @ B-19 clock on snap
(These options will only take 20 minutes to figure out and another 20 to explain and 20 more for B to make his decision)
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5. A 2/4 B8. QB A18 hands off to A44 on B's 13. A44 runs to B's 6 near the sideline where B55 hits him causing the ball to come loose. B38 then deflects the bouncing ball and B12 controls the ball while touching the end line.

Assuming the deflection was a legal muff, TB B 1/10 @ B-20 clock on snap
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6. A 3/12 B18. A16's legal forward pass is airborne when B34 grabs A88's jersey on B's 13, thus limiting A88's ability to jump for the pass.

DPI Accept; A 1/G @ B-9 clock on snap
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7. A TRY B3. The snap is high after which A4 places and holds the ball for a place kick for A6 who is in position to kick the ball. B96 bats the ball from A4's hand, recovers and advances across A's goal line.

B scores 2 points in the State of Oregon only. Otherwise ball is dead when recovered by B
BTW... If this happens and I’m the WH I’m blowing it dead as soon as B recovers and taking an IW cause I aint running 90 dam yards to cover.
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8. A 4/12 A18. A8's punt is caught on B's 47 by B21 who advances to A's 46 and fumbles. A94 recovers on A's 48 while grounded. Team A had six players on the line at the snap. B41 blocked A83 in the back on A's 44 during the punt.

Because B wasn’t in possession of the ball at the end of the down, no PSK.
Double foul, Replay the down. Clock on the ready

REPLY: Jim (Neil, that is)...in #3 you say clock on the ready. Why would you have stopped the clock on the play? Shouldn't it have continued to run?

And I see Oregon is experimenting with the NCAA rule of allowing B to score on a try. I hope they've covered all their bases on how fouls during such a play are handled. It could be confusing if not clearly defined. Let us all know how it turns out. I remember my first college game. I was the BJ and had the whistle on the try. Kick was blocked. My cheeks were filled with air and ready to blow when it hit me. I was spared an IW!

James Neil

3. A 3/G B3. The score is A28-B28 with nine seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A8's field goal attempt is blocked. A78 recovers on B's 9 and advances to B's 2 where he is downed. The kick does not cross the neutral zone. Three seconds remain on the clock.

A 4/G @ B-2 clock on the ready


Why do you stop the clock after the kick and start it again on the ready? There was no change of possesion and there was no new series of downs awarded. I could not find a situation in the rules that covers this exactly but I think with the two criteria I stated that the clock should not be stopped unless there is a time out called. Am I mistaken or missing something else?

P.S. I think the rest of your rulings are good.

I agree with your question regarding the clock. Unless A calls timeout ( assuming they have one left) the clock would continue to run and I suspect there would not be enough time to get off another play. Overtime guys!

James Neil
Question #2-Your ruling: Accept A 1/G @ B2 Clock on snap. OK
Decline B 1/10 @ B20 Clock on first legal touching. Your ruling apparently assumes the ball will be put in play by a kick. If A declines you have a touchback. Ball will be put in play by snap. Clock starts on the snap.

I have absolutely no idea what I was thinking for the clock in question 2. B will be putting the ball in play with a snap that will also start the clock.
As for #3, again I wasn’t paying attention. Sorry about that, The clock continues to roll

Oregon experimenting
 

Bob, I agree that it could get interesting in Oregon. We are already working on how to cover the bases with this and avoid the cheeks full of air

REPLY: Bob Mc...On every try, get into the habit of indicating a "live ball" (rolling the arms similar to a false start signal) and getting a positive response from the entire crew. That will minimize the chances of an IW on a try. And remember, this is true for tries by kick as well as by run.

By the way, for you Oregonians (is that a word?) if you want to see what I meant about fouls during a try that includes a change of possession, go out to the NCAA rule book (see link) and look at rule 8-3-3 and 8-3-4 on pages FR100 and FR101. Some of the rules are immaterial to the Federation game, but at least 8-3-3-c-3, 8-3-4-a, and 8-3-4-c will need to at least be considered in your experiment. And don't forget...if there is a change of possession during a try--whether or not B scores--this has no bearing whatsoever on who next kicks off. Team A will free kick after the try down regardless.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf

The Oregon Rule
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob M.
By the way, for you Oregonians...

Hello Bob M.

We hope to have the Oregon rule posted on one of our websites soon. We are still wordsmithing at this time. We looked at the NCAA rule when gathering information and elected to stay away from it. The Oregon rule follows NFHS mindset where no foul goes unpunished. The NCAA rule most certainly does not. Therefore the Oregon rule is substantially different from the NCAA rule. We did use some of the AR's from the NCAA book as case plays, they just have NFHS results. The NFHS rule is much cleaner and only involves one exception. Under the NCAA code the exceptions never seem to stop! I will put a post on this board when we get it finalized. I would be interested in your take.

-Kevin

KWH when you get the wordsmithing done email to me if you please so's us in the Mid-Columbia can play from the same book as you in Portland. Thanks

Okay, a question regarding the discussions that are going on here. Don't kill me....I don't have a good handle on NFHS rules...these are legitimate questions.

1. A 4/16 A1. The score is A14-B13. A4's punt is caught by B29 on A's 26 after a valid fair catch signal. During the down, B63 blocked A44 in the back on A's 28 and A74 blocked B95 below the waist on A's 22. Time expired in the fourth quarter during the down.

Everyone seems in agreement that there will be an untimed down no matter what in this play. What am I missing?

Okay, say we go to B and ask if they want to accept the foul for A or decline to keep the ball. B says we want to decline A's foul, because we want the ball. So then, you go to A and see what they want to do with B's foul. Team A, being smart, says we want to decline the foul by B so the game will be over. Can they decline this foul?

The answer is no, thay may not decline B's foul. In fact, when B declines A's foul there are no more options. The penalty for B's foul must be enforced because both cannot be declined. After enforcement for B's foul, it is B's ball at A's 38 yard line for an untimed down.

As Bob said Uncle. A cannot decline B's foul. You do not even go to them. Just enforce the penalty.

So, this is different in High School than in NCAA?

Thanks for the clarification.

UE

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uncle Ernie
[B]Thats right Uncy-poo, In NF rules we don't even ask A .
NF 10-2-2 says ". . . If each team fouls during a down in which there is a change of team possession, the team last gaining possession may retain the ball, provided its foul is not prior to the final change of possession and it declined the penalty for its opponent s foul, other than unsportsmanlike. In this case, the team not last in possession has no penalty options.

(the Underline and Italics are mine)

BTW,,,are we working togeather this Sat ? Dick is picking me up in GP. I need you around to keep the guys from picking on me to much :p

Bob-
When finalized,
It will be available on the OSAA website: http://www.osaa.org
along with the OAOA website: http://www.oreofficials.org
and it will be on the PFOA website: http://www.pfoa.us
I am currently finishing up DRAFT 10, when I finish I will e-mail you an advance copy. Please remember it is still a "DRAFT", we would prefer it not be published to the world just yet. (Uncle Ernie and James Neil I will also advance you copies of draft 10.) It is mainly formatting changes, (We are shortening it!) and making it more user friendly (i.e. less reading). I did correct some rules numbers that I had fat finger typo's on.
When we get it finalized, it is my intention to postting it on this website (or maybe better just posting a link) and everybody can ask questions, (or throw darts), and just creat some general good (creative?) conversation (and water-bucket plays). It is coming soon...

Can someone explain #5? I had the same ruling, but when I read the answer (which agrees with me) I'm now changing my answer based on the assumption you make in the answer.

I pasted the question and answer between the ***** for convenience...

**********************************************

5. A 2/4 B8. QB A18 hands off to A44 on B's 13. A44 runs to B's 6 near the sideline where B55 hits him causing the ball to come loose. B38 then deflects the bouncing ball and B12 controls the ball while touching the end line.

Assuming the deflection was a legal muff, TB B 1/10 @ B-20 clock on snap

*********************************************

I had touchback because I was assuming it deflected of B38's uniform or something. But you assume it was a MUFF (an unsuccessful attempt to secure posession) which by rule constitutes a new force which makes me change my ruling to SAFETY. A new force can result from a muff of a grounded loose ball which is what happened. Am I all wet here???

OK. A muff MAY result in a new force, but it normally will not. When a ball is still moving you will seldom have a new force.Especially be careful around the goalline.
Normally to have a new force added the ball must be, or almost be, at rest. If there is any doubt that the ball may have bounced into the EZ you rule on the side of the original force.
It is definately a judgement thing to add a new force. And that judgement must be of no doubt.

A muff, by rule, is the touching or accidently kicking of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. A muff, by rule, does not automatically constitute a new force. The rule defining force states after a fumble has been grounded, a new force "may" result from a muff. To have a new force in this case you would probably have to have a ball at rest or nearly at rest to have a new force. In question #5 it was stated that B38 deflected a bouncing ball. The original force,fumble,had not been spent. The ball was declared dead in B's end zone. Touchback is the correct ruling.

Excellent clarity by both of you. Bob M pointed that out in an e-mail too. "May" is a very powerful word. I agree with what you guys are saying and it makes more sense now that I think a little more about it. That's what I like about these forums.

We help each other get it right and this is what these forums are supposed to be about....so thanks!!!