Hi,

Conference finals: Kukar and Coleman. Cool.

Superbowl prediction: Nemmers.

My guess
 

Super Bowl -

1- Hoculi
2- Carey
3- Grier

Nemmers hasn't worked a playoff game, although he was an alternate. I don't think the NFL is going to let a crew sit 5 weeks between the end of the season and the SB, and then put them on the field.


[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 18th, 2004 at 07:20 PM]

please not hochuli. jmho.

mighty

What's wrong with Ed?

this guy wants more on air time than the players. ever notice that he has to explain everything more often than the next guy. to me he over exerts himself to be in the limelight. they have always told me that the best officials are the ones that go unnoticed. thats not the case with "mr.benchpress" hochuli. sorry, but jmho.

mighty

I'm really sorry to hear you say that, mighty.

I think Ed Hochuli is the best R in the NFL.

His physical size has no reason to be referred to as "mr. benchpress." His reasons for being fit and healthy are his and his alone.

And I think you're right: Ed proves that even though an official /is/ noticed, they are still among the best.

Ed was the alternate last year. Does that affect his eligibility this year? Grier and Carey both had good seasons.

A short article in Sports Illustrated in December tagged Grier and another Referee (I can't recall now which one) as being the two crews that throw the most flags. Wonder if the league puts any stock in that kind of statistic?

A comment by the Fox announcers leads me to believe that the officials, "let the guys play" more in the playoffs. The point was made on a pass play where there appeared to be quite a bit of contact (i.e., holding) on the part of the defensive back.

My personal take is that there were a number of plays in the Indianapolis - New England game in which the defense seemed to be initiating a lot of contact on the receivers. I'm not an expert on NFL rules so it's just my subjective observation.

My vote is for Kukar in the Super Bowl with Ed as the alternate. Yeah, Ed likes to "explain" a lot of the calls, but there's a part of me that likes that.

Actually, what makes him and Carey so much better than many other officials is that they explain situations so well. His explanations usually correct the misinformation that the commentators give, which is a great thing. If I'm not mistaken, the NFL encourages this.

He's already on the biggest officiating stage in the world. He doesn't need any further attempt to be seen, it happens naturally.

Would you like him better if he was 40 pounds overweight and was so scared he couldn't turn on the mic? :)

Just echoing some of the other kudos on Hochuli. The League wants them doing just what he does, and what he seems to do more comfortably and naturally than others. Being an attorney has no doubt made him a better communicator than most (to say nothing of the fact he started out as a back judge, the position generally held by the more intelligent among us).

Hochuli or Carey are the ones I'd like to see working the SB. I can't believe you don't like the fact that Ed likes to explain things, I think its great that he explains things instead of just saying what the result is.

Kukar will probably not be the Super Bowl ref because he failed to call a foul on the play that injured McNabb. It was reported that the ref or defender didn't realize McNabb was down by contact. That is irrelavant. NFL rule 12, Sec. 2, Personal Fouls, article 8(d) states: "running or diving into, or throwing the body against or on a ball carrier who falls or slips to the ground untouched and makes no attempt to advance, before or after the ball is dead" is unnecessary roughness. All the defender had to do was touch McNabb.

Kukar and Coleman worked conference championships. You won't see either in the SB.

I agree- blown call on that play. But perhaps not Kukar's fault.

I imagine that the league gives the officials directive to "not become part of the game" in the playoffs, which sometimes has just the opposite effect.

Not sure about that....
 

Bob, not sure I agree with you on your analysis of this play. Who reported that he was down by contact? The announcers? :confused: :rolleyes: If both the R and the defender didn't realize he was down by contact, then maybe it was too marginal to call at regular speed. And just because McNabb got hurt is no reason to reconsider the call.

The first time I saw it, I also thought that the QB was down by contact before the defender hit him. But, as I saw the replay from a different angle (and they only showed this angle one time), it appeared that he wasn't down by contact at least to me. The defender could probably could have let up, but I didn't view it as a flagrant hit. The injury was partly caused by McNabb's movement with his feet in the air and tumbling backwards.

I don't think this would kick Kukar out of contention if he was considered for the big game.

My understanding is that the Conference championship officials came from the wild card round and the SB officiating crew will come from the Divisional Round. That limits it to Hochuli, Austin, Carey, and Carollo. However, Carollo had last year's SB, so he's out - you can't have it in consecutive years.

I also understand that the SB crew will be the highest rated crew from the regular season, so the post season games don't count. I would assume that it is between Hochuli and Carey. I think Hochuli is more likely because Carey's crew throws the most flags of any crew and I don't think the NFL would want that in the SB.

[Edited by tempestos on Jan 19th, 2004 at 01:05 PM]

I just thought of one other thing complicates this as well. The general rule is that you can't have the superbowl in back-to-back seasons. However, the NFL went to a crew concept for this year's post-season. As a result, members of Hochuli's crew and Austin's crew worked last year's SB. Are they disqualified - I assume not. And we know Carollo was the R in last year's SB. Thus, the only crew from the divisional round without a member in last year's SB is Carey's. I wonder if that makes any difference.

It wasn't Carey's crew. It was Anderson's crew with Carey as Ref since Anderson was a first year ref. Hochulli's crew will have the SB.

Correct. Anderson was an alternate for the game.

I would like to see Mike Carey. He's my personal favorite to watch and it doesn't hurt that he's a local. ;-)

I'm surprised that so many on this forum buy in to the belief that they call playoff games differently in the NFL than regular season games.

Mike Pereira made a comment last week that they absolutely *don't* ask officials to call the playoffs any differently. He attributes any difference in the number of flags to the fact that the best, most disciplined teams are the ones playing in those games and the best crews are the ones officiating them. Whether he was speaking the truth or saying that for the cameras I guess is up to you. I have no proof either way but that reasoning makes more sense to me.

It doesn't surprise me that commentators would claim the officiating is different and that the general public would believe that but I am really shocked at the number of officials on this forum who buy in to it.

I feel like I have to ask the obvious question... Do you (or would you) call YOUR championship games differently? Do the leagues or associations ask you to call things differently?

-Sean---

I don't buy into for myself and I don't think the NFL buys into it for themselves. I recall a few years back when Jerry Seeman ran the officiating and he used to be famous for making the comment about "Super Bowl calls". He wanted guys making calls in the regular season that they would make in the Super Bowl. I don't know if that philosophy has changed but I doubt it.

Like Sean said, Mike Pereira does not tell his crews to not call stuff because its playoffs. He did say there was one exception and thats for USCs during dead ball periods, he said that he wants his crews to get in and keep the players apart and not have to throw any penalties like that. THat is the only difference he said. And he also said Kukar has a better chance ice fishing in minnesota than being at the superbowl. ;)

Lets go Ed! :D

mike carey and tony corrente are by far the best R's in the league. carey and corrente dont put themselves on a pesestal like hochuli. i think the whole nation would love to not see hochuli on the set come feb.1st. mr ego maniac needs to take a backseat and let the 2 guys that are down to earth take center stage. if you dont like my opinions about hochuli than thats tought. dont read it. thats my opinion and im sticking to it.

mighty

I think Hochuli is in the top 3 of NFL officials. I would also put Mike Carey in that group along with Kukar. Their mechanics seem first rate and they are all very decisive with their calls. They also do a great job of "selling" calls made by their crew. They hustle, yet always pay attention. Kukar got a great assignment with the NFC championship and I will be happy with either Carey or Hochuli in the SB. However, I assume it will go to Hochuli because he has the better crew. If you look at playoff history, several of his guys usually either get a championship game or the SB. Since this year, they are going with crew assignments over the all-star team, the overall crew score would seem to be more important and I think Hochuli's will probably beat Carey's.

Is there a site to check out the details about each of the NFL crews?

Here's one: http://members.tripod.com/refereestats/

Thanks. I will check it out .

I think Ed H's crew gets the nod this year for the Super Bowl. I think his crew has been the most consistent crew the entire post season.

On another note, I was sorry as well to read somebody's earlier opinion of Ed on this forum. That is what they are trained to do when having to give a explanation for a call.

I would be willing bet your opinion of Ed would change if you were coaching and he was working your game?

Ed is a professional
 

Mighty, you might want to check out who is putting himself on a pedestal!

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. My opinion (and I think shared by most on this board) is that Ed Hochuli is a great official. Is it only his explanations that you don't like?

The NFL encourages thier R's to provide explanations on the rulings to help the fans (and most announcers who are clueless) understand the rules. This is in contrast to R's at the collegiate and high school levels where officials are best when invisible to the fans. The difference is that the NFL is as much entertainment as football, whereas the lower levels are very little entertainment.

Mr. Hochuli is proficient at explaining his crew's calls and does the officiating community at large a service to be viewed as professional. Sorry you don't agree.

I'm sorry but I don't want to be sitting on the edge of my chair wondering what the heck they just called and why, it helps fans who are new understand and learn the game better. I like explanations, I wish all refs would give good explanations.

I absolutely believe the officials in the conference championships (both) were "letting them play". I don't know if it was directed by the league or if the individual officials/crews made a conscious or subconscious decision to not make certain calls. I do know that DBs were flagged consistently all season for holding that was never called in the conference championships. I don't disagree with the practice, but it definitely happens.

Is it just remotely possible that those DB's who were "being flagged all season for holding" were not in these games????????

Most flags?
 

I keep hearing coments about the most flags thrown. If evaluators are looking at each play and from what I understand they do, it does not matter who throws the most flags but who throws the most flags that should be thrown. I fail to see how number of flags thrown can be perceived as determining the quality of the officiating!

Good white hats, but here in So. Cal we are pulling for Tony Corrente. (my former hs. instructor)

God white hats, but here in So. Cal. we are pulling for Tony Corrente. (my former h.s. instructor)

Has Tony worked a playoff game this season as the white hat? I know that I have missed a couple of the games, so that is why I was wondering?

Normally, Super Bowl officiating invites are only given to officials that I have rounds prior to the conference championship games.

If my information is wrong, please feel free to correct me and give correct information.

John, check out the link from above, it lists the crews as they have been so far. I don't see Tony in there unless he was an alternate, I didn't look that close.

I'm attending a national officiating conference last this year and there's a rumour that the guest speaker is Jerry Seeman.

I've met Red Cashion and now perhaps Jerry Seeman. Looking forward to it...

Tony C. was an ALT for the NFC Wild Card game between Seattly and Green Bay.

REPLY: Don't recall seeing this posted yet on this board, but here is the crew for the Super Bowl. A friend of mine who works for the NFL confirmed it. If it's already been posted, pardon the duplication...

R-Hochuli
U-Rice
H-Hittner
L-Montgomery
F-Sifferman
S-Hayes
B-Green
Alt.-Carollo
Alt.-Quirk
Alt.-Lovett
Replay-Hill

I am glad to see that Ed H is working the Super Bowl. I think it is very well deserved for him and his fellow crew mates.

You can also goto NFL.com and checkout the gamebook for any game and find out who the officials were.

It's funny that Carollo is alternate for Hochuli at the superbowl because last year their roles were reversed with Hochuli the alternate and Carollo the R. I guess the NFL clearly sees those two guys as the top Referees in the league.

Is this Ed Hochuli's first SB on the field?

No, it's Eds 2nd SB. He had Superbowl XXXII (GB/Den) after the 1997 season.

Question
 

Just a question, and I realize hind sight is 20-20, but wouldn't the Super Bowl official most likely had to have been Ed Hochuli? Here's why: I figure, like many have said, that the NFL wants to use crews that have already worked a playoff game in the first two rounds. But like the regular season, they probably don't want to have referees officiating games involving the same team in a short time period. In otherwords, Carolina advancing to the Super Bowl elminated 3 referees (Coleman, Carey, and, course, Kukar). New England advancing eliminated 1 more referee (Carollo) [Coleman did second game]. That left four officials who worked playoff games that didn't involve a team in the Super Bowl; Jeff Triplette (TEN-BAL), Johnny Grier (DEN-IND), Gerry Austin (KC-IND), and Hochuli (PHI-GB). Now I would contend, as some have on this board, that Grier had a bad year and I was surprised he got a playoff game. Triplette is a relatively inexperienced referee; Austin, while very good, has worked two Super Bowls in the last five or so years. Now while none of this really matters, and I am sure there is no reason a referee who hasn't worked since the regular season couldn't work the Super Bowl, if I were a betting man, Ed Hochuli would have been my choice as soon as Carolina beat Philadelphia.

I apologize if any part of this post repeats anything that someone else may have posted. I haven't had a chance to read all the previous posts.

Re: Question
 

None of that has anything to do with it, Mr. BP. Before the season even kicked off, it was already determined that the #1 rated crew would work the Super Bowl. Hoculi's crew was rated #1, in spite of having 4 crew members who have less than 5 years of experience in the league. I don't think that's a mistake as there's something to be said for leadership.

It unfortunate that those 4 guys won't get to work the SB. But I wouldn't worry. I'm sure they'll get a chance in another year or two.

Local Guy Left Home
 

http://desmoinesregister.com/sports/.../23378016.html

I know a guy here in Des Moines who is on that crew and has to stay home. Bummer but I hope he gets his day someday soon.

THE THOUGHT OF HOCHULI WORKING THE SUPER BOWL HAS RUINED IT FOR ME. I CANT STAND IT. SORRY TO HURT SO MANY FEELINGS,BUT YOU WILL SEE WHY I DONT CARE FOR MR.HOCHULI TOMORROW NITE AT 5:25 CST. --------------HE WILL MESS SOMETHING UP I GUARANTEE IT. JUST WATCH.

MIGHTY

Unfortunately as officials we cannot bet, especially on a football game or anything to do with one, but I would have bet you that he will not "mess something up." He will correctly enforce whatever he is given and he will not make any mistakes in the judging of plays which are his to judge.

What keeps you from betting on NFL football games that you have no association with?


Anyways, I'm sure Ed does an excellent job and would be willing to be money that he doesn't make any bad calls. I'm sure he has over-studied his tuck rule and will be good to go.

What keeps me from betting on NFL games is that outside chance that some day I may be filling out an application for a NCAA conference and get hot with the question, "have you ever bet on a football game.?"

I believe the exact opposite. I will be watching the game BECAUSE he is the referee. I don't care who wins the game and the commercials aren't nearly as good as they used to be. Hocholi does an outstanding job and I've yet to see him "mess something up". He is getting the game he deserves because he was judged to be the best at that position this year. I agree with the NFL.

I will be watching the game because he is the referee also. I hope the producers show more of him ( actually I hope they show more of the entire crew ) As for betting , I make trips to Las Vegas and Atlantic City and have always tried to give myself the best odds possible. The bet that Hochuli will miss a call would have me scrambling for every dollar I could beg or borrow. He will not miss a call. He's there because he earned it.

Since you didn't watch, I'm happy to tell you that Ed and crew did a terrific job.

Sorry to spoil your fun! You missed a great game. :(

They did an excellent job, I know Ed did make a screw up, but it wasn't a judgement call lol. He called Illegal Reciever Downfield against the defense lol ;)

You're allowed a verbal error every now and then. It was enforced properly though.........

I know, verbal error is no biggy. But I did think they were letting the game get out of hand in the first half, it started to get a little rough during dead ball periods with cheap shots and things like that. I think they should have put an end to that right away, even if it is the superbowl those things shouldn't be tolerated. Pushing and shoving I can understand letting go but when they shouldn't have allowed the players to give cheapshots. Ah well overall it was excellently officiated.

REPLY: I agree that they did a great job. The only place where I thought (remember that I said "thought") they had screwed up was when Delhomme threw a pass into the ground just beyond the LOS. The HL threw a flag. When Hochuli announced that the pass thrown at the feet of an eligible was <u>not</u> intentional grounding by rule, I thought (remember "thought" again) that the HL would be red-faced. But when he said that the foul was for an ineligible downfield and the replay clearly showed that #69 had gone beyond the LOS and looped back just about the time the pass was thrown, he was vindicated...and I had the red face. Also, there were some absolutely great catch/no-catch calls, one by the umpire on a pivot, and another by the FJ when I thought he was probably screened by the receiver's body. But he got it, and he got it <u>right</u>!

This was a great game that was flawlessly officiated. The best call of the game was the Offensive PI when the NE receiver shoved the defender. Replays showed that the shove created clear separation. Hochuli's crew earned their $25K game fees and turned in uplifting performances that make this official look forward to September.

We have heard time and time again that the NFL wants to guys to resort to flagging players as a LAST RESORT, which is probably much different than how most of us approach our level of games. Heck they even had at least 1 alternate official out on the field helping break up one scrum. That is the way they want it handled and this crew did what they were told.

great officiating
 

I thought the officiating was great with the one exception of the Muhammad fumble/incomplete pass call. Otherwise, great game!

Wasn't JJ in violation of the no metal jewelry protruding from the uniform rule and how did the officials miss it during the pregame inspections?

Bob, I agree, excellent calls for incomplete, I too thought that the official was screened out but he came running in with an incomplete signal, nice job.


I saw the alternate out there, that was in the begininning of the game. I understand that they want to save the flags for last resort stuff but I think they were losing control of the game in the first half. I agree with not flagging pushing/shoving/trash talking if possible but when some guy is punching another guy in a pile that needs to be flagged, even at the NFL level, even during the superbowl. I'm not saying that it is the crews fault and I understand they're told to go with the no call here but I disagree with it.

Bob, I saw the play, but didn't at all consider that the HL threw for intentional grounding so it wasn't surprising to me that he had something else. On the replay, I saw the offensive lineman a few yards downfield in advance of the ball, but didn't catch him coming back across the LOS. Is the rule in the NFL that the lineman can return to his side of the LOS before the ball crosses the LOS?

Another consideration, was the ball thrown beyond the LOS?

Also, it would be have to be an exceptional play for a wing to throw a flag for intentional grounding. Consulting with the R to determine if there was an eligible receiver in the area - YES; tossing a flag - NO!

REPLY: JMN, the NFL's rule on ineligibles downfield is pretty much the same as the Fed's and the NCAA's except that it also applies to passes which do <u>not</u> cross the NZ. But as far as the guy being beyond and then coming back, tough luck! He was downfield. That's what I was trying to say in my post (maybe not well enough). The HL got it right. I agree that it would be highly unusual for a wing to throw for intentional grounding (probably because Hochuli would have strangled him!), but for the HL flagging ineligibles, seven-man crew mechanics call for the HL and LJ to stay put on the LOS until the pass is thrown. Even though ineigibles downfield is the primary responsibility of the U, the HL and LJ will be keying the closest ineligible to them. So they might very well catch an ineligible downfield.

[Edited by Bob M. on Feb 3rd, 2004 at 04:59 PM]

Just re-reading some old posts and when I heard JS speak at Glen Abbey earlier this year, he very much mentioned Super Bowl Calls. (We've changed to this philosophy to Grey Cup calls, though.)

What a great speaker. He often said, "that's what it is." He'd describe something, comment on it and then say, "that's what it is." I heard it so many times, he could have convinced me that pink is blue as long as he said "that's what it is" afterwards.