Winter Withdrawal II

[sm_bbcoach]

Team A ball on its own 22, 4/13. Team A punts. While ball is in air, A-88 and B-36 get into it on the wing. Pushing/shoving ect. Wing official throws flag AND hits whistle hard 3 times. Ball then goes OOB, bounds by the team box, then returns to the field at the B-43. A-89 downs the ball since no other official blew his whistle.

As officials come together to discuss what just transpired, none of them have any idea where the ball went OOB, since they all looked over at the left wing where the whistle & flag came from. The reporting official for the flag reports the inadvertant whistle and the flag is for:

(a) personal foul on both players.

(b) personal foul on B, then a USC on retaliation by A.

(c) USC on B, no foul on A.

(d) USC on BOTH players and B-3 is ejected for a closed fist hit on A's helemt.

Obviously, clock is stopped, how fo you sort out this mess of a play . Give for all situations.

[Snake~eyes]

Well for all the plays you have a IW while the ball is lose so you have to redo the play.


A) Penalties off set. Still team A ball on 22, 3/13.

B) Penalties don't off set but its still team A ball on 22, 1/10.

C) Team A ball on its own 37, 1/10

D) [EDIT]i messed this part up, forgot what yard line it was on lol

That's what I got, not sure if I did it right. I think if I was WH I wouldn't give the inadvertant whistle signal so we wouldn't look as bad.

[Edited by Snake~eyes on Nov 30th, 2003 at 09:31 PM]

[PSU213]

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
Team A ball on its own 22, 4/13. Team A punts. While ball is in air, A-88 and B-36 get into it on the wing. Pushing/shoving ect. Wing official throws flag AND hits whistle hard 3 times. Ball then goes OOB, bounds by the team box, then returns to the field at the B-43. A-89 downs the ball since no other official blew his whistle.

As officials come together to discuss what just transpired, none of them have any idea where the ball went OOB, since they all looked over at the left wing where the whistle & flag came from. The reporting official for the flag reports the inadvertant whistle and the flag is for:

(a) personal foul on both players.

(b) personal foul on B, then a USC on retaliation by A.

(c) USC on B, no foul on A.

(d) USC on BOTH players and B-3 is ejected for a closed fist hit on A's helemt.

Obviously, clock is stopped, how fo you sort out this mess of a play . Give for all situations.

First, the spot where the ball went OOB is of no importance because the ball is dead the moment the IW occurs. Here are the rulings:

(a) Replay the down.

(b) If there was "pushing and shoving" then both fouls should be PF's , and A would only pick up a USC by saying something, making a gesture, etc. (USC's are non-contact fouls). Assuming it was, however, a USC on A: march off 15 on B for the PF; FD for A; assess the 15 yards on A (penalties for USC fouls are enforced from the succeeding spot); 1st and 10 for A from the 22.

(c) Because of the IW the down will be replayed. The succeeding spot is the previous spot, therefore this is the enforcement spot for the USC (again, if this was a contact foul, it should be a PF). 1st and 10 for A from the 37.

(d) This one is a little sticky. If B's USC came first, you would walk off B's penalty; FD for A; walk off A's penalty; 1st and 10 for A from the 22. If A's foul came first, march off their foul, half the distance to the GL to the 11. Then march off the 15 yds. on B to the 26. It will be A's ball 4th and 7. If you cannot determine which foul came first, you cannot enforce the penalties, but both players have now picked up a USC (for ejection purposes). That brings up another point: if the B player strikes the A player this is PF, not a USC (see above for how the PF is enforced vis-a-vis the USC). If he then commits a USC after the strike, then both the PF and the USC are enforced. If nothing else, these plays highlight the importance of differentiating between personal fouls and USC's as their respective enforcement provisions create very different rulings.

Finally, the clock will start on the ready in all circumstances.

[Snake~eyes]

Oops, yea you're right PSU, for D situation it depends on what foul is first, I forgot what yard we were on. It's hard to visualize this stuff sometimes, I think I would have gotten it right had I actually been there. Good catch.

[Edited by Snake~eyes on Nov 30th, 2003 at 09:36 PM]

[Ed Hickland]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PSU213

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach


(d) This one is a little sticky. If B's USC came first, you would walk off B's penalty; FD for A; walk off A's penalty; 1st and 10 for A from the 22. If A's foul came first, march off their foul, half the distance to the GL to the 11. Then march off the 15 yds. on B to the 26. It will be A's ball 4th and 7. If you cannot determine which foul came first, you cannot enforce the penalties, but both players have now picked up a USC (for ejection purposes). That brings up another point: if the B player strikes the A player this is PF, not a USC (see above for how the PF is enforced vis-a-vis the USC). If he then commits a USC after the strike, then both the PF and the USC are enforced. If nothing else, these plays highlight the importance of differentiating between personal fouls and USC's as their respective enforcement provisions create very different rulings.

Finally, the clock will start on the ready in all circumstances.

The two USC fouls under NFHS do not offset, under NCAA they do. Given the position on the field A's ball on its own 22, B would have committed the first USC and A followed. That way you enforce fifteen yards upfield and return to the same spot. Unless it is blantant, don't create an inequity by choosing A, you want the fouls to effectively offset. Then B3's stupidity would move the ball fifteen yards and give A a first down.

As the WH my first concern would be did the action occur before the whistle on the personal fouls. You must be concerned with live/dead ball status to correctly enforce personal fouls. Also, do not confuse USC with personal fouls. ALL contact fouls are personal fouls. A player can be ejected for one flagrant personal foul. USC is any non-contact act such as cursing, taunting, trash-talking, celebrating,etc. Two of those by a player and he is gone.

[Tundra Ref]

What about contact with an official? This is always an ejection, but is it technically - USC or PF?

[Patton]

Originally posted by Tundra Ref
What about contact with an official? This is always an ejection, but is it technically - USC or PF?

SECTION 4, ART. 6 . . . No player or nonplayer shall intentionally contact an official. (Arts. 1, 2l, 6) – (S38-47) – 15 yards and disqualification

So according to NFHS rules, it's considered a personal foul.

[Snake~eyes]

USCs are noncontact fouls.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Tundra Ref
What about contact with an official? This is always an ejection, but is it technically - USC or PF?

It is technically a flagrant personal foul.