FaceMask Penalty

[mikesears]

Okay,

Rookie question so I hope I don't get two different answers.

Team A has the ball 1st and 10. During the play A1 only gets 1 yard but B1 is flagged for a 5-yard facemask (assessed from the end of the run - correct?)

***** QUESTION *****
What down will Team A play next?

Because team A will accept, do they repeat first down or do they go to second down and why?

I have not been able to find a clear rule on this in the rulebook. Is there a casebook example of this?

[Zeke5]

You are correct in the fact that the facemask foul is
assessed from the end of the run assuming this was
a running play and the foul occurred during that "related"
run.
**(10-4-3 Basic Spots).
Note: if the facemask occurred during a loose ball (ie. a
pass) it would be assessed from the previous spot.

This was a live ball foul by B which doesn't carry an
automatic first down, and in your case, after the distance
penalty is marched off, the line to gain had not been
reached so "the next down is the same down as that of the
down which the foul occurred ..."
**(5-2-2 Down and Possession After Penalty)


So, given your situation above, and assuming that the play
started on A's 3o, it would be 1st and 4 for A at A's 36.

[Edited by Zeke5 on Nov 29th, 2000 at 08:43 PM]

[mikesears]

Zeke5,

Thanks! To a second year official, this board has been very helpful! I appreciate your clarity in spelling out the WHY.

[Zeke5]

I hope not to diminish my credibility or the veracity of
my previous response, but I am a first year HS official who
has gotten a lot of valuable information and help from this
forum as well. I am more than willing to help anyone in
return, but please be aware, I'm as (or more) likely to
be wrong than you ...



[Edited by Zeke5 on Nov 1st, 2000 at 09:52 AM]

[jreddish]

The only officiating experience I have is about 20 games with NIRSA rules Flag Football at the University of Maryland.

The enforcement principles we use, which seem to be the same as in Fed High School ball, correspond to Loose Ball vs. Running Play. It seems, mikesears, that reviewing these principles would be very helpful to you. I will explain them in the simplified terms of my supervisor.

Loose Ball Foul - A foul which occurs in any play in which the ball is loose, prior to the point at which it becomes controlled (or "unloose"). This includes punts, passes, laterals, kickoffs, and anything else you can imagine. A foul occuring in a loose ball play prior to the subsequent controlling of the ball is enforced from the previous spot. An example of this would be defensive holding or in fact any interior line fouls prior to a released pass. After enforcing penalty yarding, down and distance can be established.

Running Play Foul - A foul which occurs in a play where the ball never becomes loose, or a play in which the foul occurs after the ball is again controlled, i.e. during the return or after a reception. These fouls are enforced using the previously described All But One Principle.

Simultaneous with the Snap Fouls - Illegal Motion/Shift, Offsides by the defense. Enforced from the preceding spot, or original line of scrimmage.

Dead Ball Fouls - Fouls which occur when the ball is not "in play", like False Start, Encroachment, Illegal Snap, some Unsportsmanlikes and personal fouls. Assessed from the result of the play. This can be after down and distance have been established if the foul is something like a PF or USC in what NFL officials call "action continuing after the play".

I hope this helps, and more importantly I hope that this all still applies to Fed rules.

[mikesears]

I am familiar with the Nat Fed "All but one" principle and the principles behind LOOSE ball, DEAD ball, etc. I have absolutey no problems understanding these principles but appreciate the thoughtfulness in suggesting these areas.

I asked about the facemask penalty because I was officiating a young kids football game and a veteren referee (10+ years) who was watching his kid play got on me because I called a facemask (5-yard variety) penalty on first down, tacked on the yardage penalty, and left the down at first down. His statement was "It's a tack-on penalty! You mark it off and play the next down." I thought the down remained the same as the down in which the foul occured but was confused because I have worked with this official before and he has a great deal of experience.

[Zeke5]

Well, if there is one thing I've learned in my first year
of officiating is that the amount of experience does not,
in itself, equate to a good official.

There have been several people I've worked with this year with 10+ years of officiating, that have an absolutely
appalling lack of rules knowledge and game sense. No 10+
year official worth his salt would ever argue that a
penalty is a "tack-on" penalty. The only thing that would
convince me that this guy was a "good" official (but a poor
sportsman) is that he knew he was dealing with a young
official and was attempting to confuse you.

I hope you stuck to your guns Mike ...

[mikesears]

We stuck to our guns and I just ignored him. However, I really think he was convinced that the down should have been second down. I really appreciate the support I get from members of this forum. I've got to agree about having some poor officials out there.

NFHS rules:
I had a referee with 20+ years who was convinced that 12 players being involved during a down (illegal participation) was a 5-yard penalty, forward Offensive Pass Interference was not loss of down, and Clipping was a 10-yard penalty. I don't know how an experienced referee could get a job with this complete lack of knowledge!

(12 players playing is a 15-yard penalty. Offensive Pass Interference includes loss of down, and clipping is a 15-yard penalty.)