I'm not making this up - Your ruling?

MD Longhorn · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 21, 2003, 02:46pm

This sounds like one of those plays you invent to quiz your crew.... but it happened last night.

NCAA rules, but I'd be interested to hear if there's a difference in NF.

A ball, 1st and 10 on the 35. A24 runs a sweep. A11 (WR) holds on the 45. A24 runs to the B-25 where he fumbles. B40 recovers and runs - B holds on the 50, ahead of the play, and B40 runs to the A-15 where A commits an inadvertent facemask, and B40 fumbles. A8 recovers, runs around the other side and runs smack into B's coach, who's on the field heading toward an injured player (Coach didn't even see it coming). A falls to the ground at A's 40 after colliding with the coach.

Who has options, (or who has the first option, and then second, etc.), and where do you spot the ball, depending on the decisions on the options. And who's ball.

This was a 3-man crew. All three of us had dropped flags and hats, and LJ had dropped his bag when he saw the coach on the field.

BktBallRef · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 21, 2003, 02:57pm

Replay the down after penalizing the foul against Coach B, unless it results in a 1st down.

bigwhistle · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 21, 2003, 02:57pm

The live ball penalties offset, bringing the ball back to the previous spot. The unsportsmanlike conduct foul against the coach would be considered a live ball foul treated as a dead ball foul. Therefore, a 15 yard markoff against team B, and team A will have the ball 1st and 10 at the 50.

MD Longhorn · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 21, 2003, 03:12pm

Does NF not have "Clean Hands" rules allowing a team to decline a penalty that occured before a turnover in order to keep the ball?

simpson · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 21, 2003, 03:18pm

Why don't you just throw in an IW to make the play more difficult?

Stab in the dark - NF Rules:

B's Ball at the B 12.5 yard line.

B got the ball with clean hands. If they decline the A hold at the 45 yd line, it's their ball. There's a double foul on B's run so A cannot get the ball w/ clean hands due to the facemask penalty. Double foul on B's run - go back to the end of the previous run(?): ie. the 25 yard line. USC on B coach administered as a dead ball foul - half the distance to the goal. B Ball 1 & 10 @ 12.5 yd line.

What did you guys do?

MD Longhorn · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 21, 2003, 03:26pm

That's what we did. Gave B the option of declining the hold, which they did. Then offset the other two, as A cannot decline in this case. Then walk off the USC.

It actually took us longer to relive the play afterward than to rule... but it was interesting trying to remember the placements of everything, considering there were only 3 of us, and all 3 had run up and back, and up again.

Interesting you should mention IW. Whitehat, after about 3 minutes of making sure we had all the penalties straight, and in order, says "Are we sure none of us accidentally blew the whistle before the first penalty - that would be a lot easier. This is giving me tired-head.".

PiggSkin · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 21, 2003, 03:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mbcrowder
Does NF not have "Clean Hands" rules allowing a team to decline a penalty that occured before a turnover in order to keep the ball?

Fed does have the clean hands priciple, but didn't A end up with the ball..?

Fouls on both teams, A didn't have clean hands when gaining possession for the last time, so offset, then enforce the USC for the coach... 1st and 10 at the 50... (Assuming the original LOS was A's 35...)

AndrewMcCarthy · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 21, 2003, 03:58pm

This is a double foul since A was the team last in possession and they fouled prior to gaining possession. B may have gotten the ball with clean hands but that principle does not apply in this case. Since B was not last in possession they have no options.

Fed 10-2-2.

BktBallRef has it right.

Bob M. · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 21, 2003, 04:11pm

REPLY: NCAA and Federation "clean hands" principles are almost the same. The only difference is that in Fed, the team not in final possession has no options, i.e. he must accept the penalty for his opponent's foul. In NCAA, he still retains the option of either accepting or declining the penalty for his opponent's foul.

simpson · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 21, 2003, 04:15pm

After talking about this w/ a fellow official, I see my mistake. Had B not fumbled, they could have declined all of A's penalties and then had the ball. But since A had the ball at the end of the play, all of the live ball fouls are going to offset.

He had a question on the coach penalty. NCAA rules wouldn't this be Illegal Interference instead of USC? Rule 9-1-4.

"ARTICLE 4. a. No substitute, coach, authorized attendant or any person subject to the rules, other than a player or official, may interfere in any way with the ball or a player while the ball is in play.
PENALTY-15 yards from the basic spot. The referee may enforce any penalty he considers equitable, including awarding a score."

If it's illegal interference, would it be a live ball foul and offset with all of the other fouls?

BktBallRef · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 21, 2003, 06:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mbcrowder
That's what we did. Gave B the option of declining the hold, which they did. Then offset the other two, as A cannot decline in this case. Then walk off the USC.

It actually took us longer to relive the play afterward than to rule... but it was interesting trying to remember the placements of everything, considering there were only 3 of us, and all 3 had run up and back, and up again.

Are you saying you gave the ball to B? How can you give the ball to B when they didn't possess it at the end of the down? Is that the NCAA rule?

cowbyfan1 · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 02:53am

mb, sounds like you should have gone IW route.. offset and go USC on the coach from the previous spot(talking NF rule)

MD Longhorn · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 09:05am

In NCAA, B has the option of declining A's original foul, as they got the ball with "clean hands". I understand now that this is not the case in NF.

In thinking about the NF version, I'm wondering if this ruling is fair (not questioning the accuracy under the rules as stated - just the fairness). B has gained possession of the ball on a fumble, having done nothing wrong on their own. In your rules, if B holds during the run after the fumble, they retain the ball, but because A cheated and caused a fumble in the process, now B no longer has a right to the ball? That seems wrong and against the spirit of the rules. It allows A to cheat in order to gain advantage (i.e. forcing an offsetting penalty and getting the ball back).

Simpson raises a good point about the USC. It should have been illegal interference - a live ball foul. I wonder now if the "the referee shall enforce any penalty he considers equitable, including awarding a score" clause would allow us to penalize 15 yards from the succeeding instead of previous spot in this particular case. Another consideration is that even before he contacted the player, he violated 9-2-1-b "...coaches... shall not be on the field of play..." - which allows 15 yards from the succeeding spot.

Now I get to discuss this part of the play at the meetings.