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-   -   HS Football Penalty in OT (https://forum.officiating.com/football/104739-hs-football-penalty-ot.html)

chapmaja Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:40am

HS Football Penalty in OT
 
I have a question regarding the following situation. This isn't a real situation, but a hypothetical based on some information i just saw. NFHS rules.

HS Varsity game enters OT.

Team A scores, and the PAT attempt is good. Team B, during the PAT is called for Roughing the kicker.

What are the options for Team A as a result of the Team B penalty.

One of the options mentioned was half the distance and retry the PAT. I completely understand this option.

The second is enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot. This would make it Team B's possession at the 25 yard line. What is the down and distance in this situation?

HLin NC Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:31pm

1st and Goal.

RESOLVING TIED GAMES

5-3-1: The line to gain is always the goal line regardless of whether or not a penalty enforcement places the ball more than 10 yards from the goal line to start a new series.

chapmaja Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 1034648)
1st and Goal.

RESOLVING TIED GAMES

5-3-1: The line to gain is always the goal line regardless of whether or not a penalty enforcement places the ball more than 10 yards from the goal line to start a new series.

Thank you.

I personally think this is a crap rule, because it is inconsistent with the effect of the penalty at other points in the game.

For example, we have a 4th down stop by the Team B at midfield. After the play is over (but before the ball is spotted for play) Team B commits a DBPF by pushing a Team A player to the ground. The penalty is 15 yards, so Team now gains possession at the Team B 35 yard line. We still have a first and 10 situation. Since a live ball foul on a scoring play, (in the OP, roughing the kicker IIRC) can be penalized from the succeeding spot, which would be the point the ball is kicked off from.

If they want to have the penalty result in that substantial of a penalty it needs to be consistent at all points of the game. First and goal from the 25 in OT should be the same as first and 25 during regulation, in my opinion.


I also think OT should do what college does and start from the 25 rather than the 10, which would make this rule argument moot anyway.

Rich Thu Sep 26, 2019 01:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 1034652)
Thank you.



I personally think this is a crap rule, because it is inconsistent with the effect of the penalty at other points in the game.



For example, we have a 4th down stop by the Team B at midfield. After the play is over (but before the ball is spotted for play) Team B commits a DBPF by pushing a Team A player to the ground. The penalty is 15 yards, so Team now gains possession at the Team B 35 yard line. We still have a first and 10 situation. Since a live ball foul on a scoring play, (in the OP, roughing the kicker IIRC) can be penalized from the succeeding spot, which would be the point the ball is kicked off from.



If they want to have the penalty result in that substantial of a penalty it needs to be consistent at all points of the game. First and goal from the 25 in OT should be the same as first and 25 during regulation, in my opinion.





I also think OT should do what college does and start from the 25 rather than the 10, which would make this rule argument moot anyway.



And in Wisconsin we DO start from the 25. States are free to use the NFHS recommended procedure or create their own. We use the NCAA tiebreaker rules.


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HLin NC Thu Sep 26, 2019 02:58pm

The key to NFHS philosophy on OT is they want the game over. It doesn't always work out that way but we rarely see sextuple OT games in HS. Its not that uncommon to have multiple periods in college.

If you want to foul your way out of it, then that's the team's problem.

SC Official Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:55am

I wouldn't be surprised if more states use their own procedure than use the NFHS procedure.

ilyazhito Fri Sep 27, 2019 02:34pm

DC uses their own procedure (this was developed by DCIAA, the governing body for DC public schools, but is used throughout DC by the DCSAA, the umbrella organization for scholastic sports in DC). In DC, there is a coin toss before the 1st overtime period with 3 choices (offense 1st, defense 1st, end of the field). The 1st overtime period starts 1/10 for A from the 20 (unless moved by penalty). If needed, the 2nd overtime period starts 1/10 for A' (the team that played defense 1st in the 1st overtime period). If that does not resolve the situation, there is a 3rd and final coin toss before the 3rd overtime, which starts 1/G for A from the 10. Options alternate in any additional overtime periods, which also start 1/G from the 10.

In DC, succeeding spot enforcement in the 1st 2 overtime periods would result in B getting the ball 1/10 from the 35 yard line.

Tom.OH Fri Sep 27, 2019 03:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034666)
I wouldn't be surprised if more states use their own procedure than use the NFHS procedure.

Ohio starts 1st & 10 at the 20

voiceoflg Mon Sep 30, 2019 03:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom.OH (Post 1034672)
Ohio starts 1st & 10 at the 20

Georgia starts 1st & 10 from the 15.

chapmaja Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 1034659)
The key to NFHS philosophy on OT is they want the game over. It doesn't always work out that way but we rarely see sextuple OT games in HS. Its not that uncommon to have multiple periods in college.

If you want to foul your way out of it, then that's the team's problem.

Maybe your area doesn't see multiple OT games, but Michigan seems to. This season only three games though have gone multiple OT's. Of those, two went three OT's and the other went 4OT's.

I still think if they want to end the games earlier, increasing the distance from start to the endzone would do that more than going from the 10. From the 10 you are in FG range for most HS teams. Going back to the 20 or 25 and now you need a kicker to win the games. (With that said, a lot of OT games appeared to be 1 point margins in Michigan, so maybe a PAT isn't that easy for a lot of teams in this state.

Robert Goodman Thu Oct 10, 2019 04:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 1034779)
I still think if they want to end the games earlier,

...then they should call it a tie and quit, like they used to.

scrounge Fri Oct 11, 2019 06:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 1034857)
...then they should call it a tie and quit, like they used to.

The only reason we don't in OH is for playoff rankings. As mentioned by Tom, we start 1st/10 on the 20, and there is no overtime for any sub-varsity games at any level.

Robert Goodman Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrounge (Post 1034864)
The only reason we don't in OH is for playoff rankings.

What do they do for standings purposes, count an overtime win as something between a tie and a regulation win?

In most cases, having a few tie games sprinkled around helps spread out the standings to determine championships, as long as it isn't the top teams that tie each other. But that goes only if only conference championships go on to play off. If they have one of these systems where many more teams than you'd need (to realistically determine a champion) qualify for playoffs, then I've no idea whether season ties help resolve qualifications or make them harder to figure.

Of course in playoffs themselves you need to break ties. However, in the finals you don't!

Rich Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 1034875)
What do they do for standings purposes, count an overtime win as something between a tie and a regulation win?



In most cases, having a few tie games sprinkled around helps spread out the standings to determine championships, as long as it isn't the top teams that tie each other. But that goes only if only conference championships go on to play off. If they have one of these systems where many more teams than you'd need (to realistically determine a champion) qualify for playoffs, then I've no idea whether season ties help resolve qualifications or make them harder to figure.



Of course in playoffs themselves you need to break ties. However, in the finals you don't!



An overtime win is a win. An overtime loss is a loss.


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CT1 Fri Oct 11, 2019 03:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 1034875)
Of course in playoffs themselves you need to break ties. However, in the finals you don't!

You gotta be kidding me. Why in the wide world of sports would you NOT want to determine a champion?


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