25/40 Play clock
 

With the season starting soon, how many states have adopted adding a play clock on the field?

Has there been any discussion for states that aren't using the on-field clock how they are planning on handling long incomplete passes? Are they asking teams to have multiple game balls?

This is a NF rule so I am not sure there is a state flat out not adding the rule. I guess that is possible but not likely.

Now we in Illinois will be using the rule and there has been some talk about what should be suggested, but there is not a standard policy of extra balls being available. There is a suggestion, but that means we will have some schools doing this and others will not. Even if you have multiple balls, we still will not have the consistency as we do at the NCAA level to even use multiple balls. The issue as I see it is not the multiple balls, it is the multiple ball boys on both sides to help make this work properly.

Peace

Whether they have a visible play clock or not is a school by school decision, and not really relevant to the rule. If no visible play clock, the BJ (at least in our mechanics, but that seems pretty common) will keep the 40, just like he did with the 25.

Handling long incompletes isn't all that different, I bet, either. Wings grab a new football from the ball handler, BJ polices up the old ball. I've seen varsity teams with just 2 footballs, but never just 1.

In Ohio, we will not be using the 40 sec play clock for subvarsity, thankfully.

JRutledge, I meant a physical play clock.

I know in my area having ball boys that are focused in the game is a big problem.

It's a state decision here in California.

There is no mandate for physical play clocks. If a school has one it is because they decided on their own to make that change or addition.

And we are lucky if we have ball boys at all as it is related to other areas. We usually have one ball boy, on one side of the field and is an injured/backup player or a son of a coach. Not ideal at all.

Peace

It does surprise me a little how some places only use one ball and chase it all over the field. Every team has multiple balls and finding the 14-year old son of a coach doesn't seem to be too big of a problem here. Some teams will also use an injured player or manager.

If you have historically only used one ball it wouldn't be too hard for the state to mandate schools provide at least 2 or 3 as well as a ball boy. They can definitely use this new rule as a reason. When we experimented they made it optional for us to have balls for both teams on both sides. With the exception of a couple weeks that's what we've done the past 3 years. Occasionally we'll have a visiting team request to place an extra ball boy on the home team side (all change of possession come in from the home side for efficiency) and we are fine with that if they are. It hasn't been a problem.

People keep saying this was a solution in search of a problem. If you consistently can't get the ball ready for play in 25 seconds because you are chasing down footballs, then it was more of a problem than I realized.

I don't know if any of the experimental states were ones where only one ball was used by each team. That should never have happened in the first place and can be easily fixed now.

I said this to you before. The issue is not if we can get the ball in place at 25 seconds, the issue is that there is not a mechanism to make that happen consistently. If the ball is thrown literally to the track or to the fence in a high school field, then it is an issue if we have started the clock as stated and we have no other help to retrieve the ball in a timely manner. Is that every play? Nope. But it happens enough that this was a serious concern at a couple of meetings I attended.

And none of this solves anything if there is no policy in place to solve obvious hole that was never considered. Again, this rule was a solution looking for a problem. There was nothing needed for this rule because it does not make the game better or even go faster. We still have no play clocks at most fields and we still have no policy for having different balls at least in this state. BTW, the only time we have a coach check different balls is when they think they get a "kicking ball." Otherwise, we get one, sometimes two that they bring to us, but again the same issue is at play. It is one kid or their side of the field that often is not paying attention to the game anyway. We cannot get ball boys in college to pay attention, but we are relying on a one ball boy that often does not know to bring the ball in after an obvious change of possession.

We will work with it and it is going to take some penalties for some coaches to have the light bulb go on or the IHSA to realize we have serious holes, but I am just going to laugh until the fallout.

Peace

I am anxious to hear about your implementation. I have several officiating friends in your area so I'll see if their experiences are similar to yours. I would imagine they will be.

I guarantee each of your teams have multiple balls they can check. They choose not to or have never been asked to. I think that's fairly rare around the country but these forums have proven it's more common than I would have expected. Our poorest inner city schools have at least 2 or 3 balls. They may not be great footballs, but they have multiple and have no problem checking them.

I wish you the best of luck!

Perhaps one solution to your problem, Rut, would be to have your BJ hold off starting the 40 for an extra second or three when the ball has to be retrieved. I doubt anyone would be the wiser.

Already discussed that part, but that is not the issue in the long run.

Peace

I would hope that teams and officials would use the scrimmages to have a live practice. I would also hope that the Line Judges for 4 men crews and BJ in 5 men crews have the ready Ref timers!!!

I'm not worried about this rule. I will be fine with what we do because what we have will be based on what the schools provide or what they accept. Just like when I was a baseball umpire, we had only so many balls the schools would provide, so we dealt with their limitations. And in many cases, the schools would complain about how many balls they had, but they choose to provide only a small amount of baseballs that were actually needed.

Providing balls is not going to be the issue. They could provide 10 balls per team, but what are you going to do when you have no system in place to figure out when to bring in the next ball? If you only keep your footballs on your side of the field and you have no system to chase the ball, that is going to be the rub. You could have all your footballs sitting on your opponent's sideline at some point and no ball boy system to make this run easier. This to me is like having a shot clock in basketball, but you do not put the shot clock on the basket, but it is on a stopwatch. You have caused issues that you would not have had normally. And what you will find is that there will be no one size fits all situation. I have already had this conversation with a couple of assignors and they have to try to convince their schools to do simple things that we do automatically at the college level. It is just going to be funny when the season starts.

Also, most scrimmages here will not be with an actual clock or an actual game-like situation. Scrimmages here are often run by the schools that decide they will run plays at their pace or how they wish to run. Scrimmages will not be a place things will be ironed out on this front. Week 1 will be the actual testing ground.

Peace

In terms of mechanics, are you just counting down the last 5 seconds or do you have your hand up at 10 secs then count down the last 5 seconds?

We do the same as we did before without a clock. We count down the last 5 seconds.

Peace

Had our first meeting of the season and we are doing the hand up at 10 secs and counting down the last 5 secs.

Arizona started this year. Based on scrimmages, I don't see a problem with 25/40. Ball boys WILL be an issue. They want 3 balls from each team and 2 or more ball boys. 3 balls on H side, 2 balls on V side and game ball. It will undoubtedly be a cluster "#$@&"...

We've been using the 40 second play clock in Indiana for 2-3 years now. The state had originally told us they wanted a ball boy on the opposite team's sideline. We did not like that and never did it.

We throw incomplete passes off to the nearest sideline and get another ball in rather quickly. We have radios to communicate with each other and if a ball goes off the field on the wrong sideline will have the ball boy of that team run the opposing team's ball behind a goal post. The ball boy of the team the ball belongs to will then go and recover it.

Keep one ball boy right next to sideline official and another 20 yards up field who runs and collects game balls as they come off the field. If there is a pass heavy team then three ball boys will help things run smoother.

This is not always the case, but what happens if the ball is literally thrown out of bounds on the other side of the team on offense? Who gets those ball in your system? That is the biggest problem as I see it. We had a playoff game here where the a team near the end of the game had an exchange problem and they lost a game and that was the blame. And we are lucky if we even have an on-field clock. I am under the impression that Indiana has mostly on-field clocks. Is that correct.

Peace

Yes, I think I've maybe worked one varsity game in 10 years that did not have an on field play clock.

So your question is a ball is thrown out of bounds to team B's sideline? In that situation the official on team A's sideline would quickly grab a ball from their ball boy and team B's ball boy would run the out of bounds ball under a goal post for one of team A's ball boys to go pick up.

In the past 5 years or so, we have had maybe 5 field clocks. And we had the same team a couple of times over that time so it was the same school. But we are lucky if we get one. Unless some of these schools add a clock this year, we do not have any games with a field-play clock at this point. I think this rule will help with that changing, but it is going to take awhile.

If they do that it would be better for sure, but we do not have a policy here at this point to make that happen across the board. But we will find out here very soon. The season starts in about 2 weeks. ;)

Peace

[QUOTE=
If they do that it would be better for sure, but we do not have a policy here at this point to make that happen across the board. But we will find out here very soon. The season starts in about 2 weeks. ;)
[/QUOTE]

This is just how our crew does it. We found it's the best way to do it and the ball boys usually do a good job for us. The state originally wanted a ball boy from each team on both sidelines....The coaches did not want that and we thought that caused more confusion. We do a good job of getting the ball set and there is usually at least 30 seconds on the play clock by the time I (I'm the umpire) back off the ball.

Tomes1978, are you a 5 or 7 men crew?

We are 5 man crews.

Another issue is getting a chain crew that will hustle. That's the hard part!!!!!

I agree! I have a 3rd concern, Mobile BJ. We don't have set crews and guys can get assigned different positions. Last year, I had some slow BJs and wings guys. This new rule makes it tough.

For the non-field clocks, how did you handle pumping up the play clock on delays? Not having a physical clock or using the Ref Smart.

I like the Ref Smart, but that would be the only negative is not knowing how much time is left.

It was never a requirement but it was an option given. In the 3 years of the experiment we've maybe had 1 or 2 games each season where the coaches did not want balls on both sides for both teams. We didn't push it, but it definitely hurt our flow. It's more efficient to do it with balls on both sides for both teams, but it can be done the traditional way you explain. You are more likely have delays in getting balls back to the correct side.

But they've been doing it for 30 years...

The NCAA games around here all have at least 4 ball people (honestly, the softball/women's basketball players seem to be the most attentive... good luck if it's the wrestlers).

Two per sideline, one standing with the LOS official, one near the deep official. Ideally, each one will have one ball for each team. Ball goes OOB, the wing official turns and gets a new ball from the nearest ball person (usually the one nearest the LOS official) and relays it in to me, and the other ball person gets to hunt down the one that went OOB. We can get away with as few as three game balls per team (one per sideline, plus the one in play. For Team B, keep the 3rd ball on the pressbox side, since we always get a new ball from the pressbox side after a change of possession)

Of course, this requires 4 attentive ball persons, and 5 game balls per team... neither of which are going to happen in a high school game.

That's how our college games go as well although each ball person will have balls for the same team. That way the wing can turn to the right official and reduce the likelihood of getting the wrong ball. If the ball boys have to keep track of which ball belongs to which team they will send the wrong ball in a couple times. But both systems work fine.

We usually have 2 or 3 ball kids on each side for HS games and most teams check 3-5 balls each game so it's definitely possible. It's been that way for my near 20-year experience of officiating HS so we are used to it. It could be hard if you have no ball persons today and each team only checks one ball. But it's definitely doable because there are plenty of kids who would love to do it and each team has 8-10 usable balls. Just go to a practice to know that.

And that is why many of us are concerned about this new rule. What you are talking about as if it is the norm is not the norm or will not be the norm for many of us. We still have no policy to have a uniformed response to changing balls. I would love it if they did just partially what college does, but there is no such policy or action that everyone seems to agree on to use. So every week will be an adventure.

Peace

Worked a few scrimmages and the rule does work for the most part. The issue is going to be when the situations take place that happens in real game situations. And my biggest concern is end of game situations where teams might just use this to milk the clock.

I still think like most brand new NF rules, this was not very well thought out and certainly did not think of the possible application of these rules. It is one thing to say what jersey cannot be worn or what types of jewelry needs to be taken off, those are easy fixes. This takes a series of things and situations that could cause problems. If you do not have a ball boy system in place, this rule is going to have very inconsistent application. If you have no on-field game clocks across the board, you will have inconsistent application.

Peace

It was extremely thought out. Indiana tried to do an experiment 4 years ago but didn't go through the proper channels so we had to wait a year. In the past 3 years I believe at least 3 or 4 states have experimented with it.

Your issues all seem to be very local and things that should have been addressed regardless of the 40 second play clock. Bad ball boys. One ball per team the entire game. Sounds like a problem that definitely needs a solution and the rule indirectly solves it (not the intent but definitely a benefit). If your state doesn't recognize that and do something about those issues that is a problem with your state and not the NFHS rule.

Actually, "Time will tell, how well thought out these changes were", but they are what they are, and we need to adjust to them, as best we can. Much like Real Estate, 99.9% of the "Interscholastic Level" of football, is "Local", and it will likely be quicker/longer for individual areas to fully adapt.

Where "every week will be an adventure" it's likely the skill, common sense, and sound judgment of Field Officials will provide the glue that holds things together, as it has done (reasonably well) for the last 100, or so, seasons.

There may very well likely be additional "tweaks", "recommendations" and possible adjustments, but like water, different skill levels of football eventually adjust to seek their "proper level", as happily yet another season unfolds.

All the states that did the experimental rule had people that are college officials as their administrator of the sport.

Also not sure what you mean by very local? You mean the entire state? I was not referring to my immediate area. You realize I live in some of the most affluent areas in the state of Illinois and those schools do not have play clocks and in some cases turf. But turf is very common here and that was often a bone of contention with school districts to provide. Most of the schools also are bigger schools that are like from 6A to 8A (we have 8 classes) with over 2000 students (or more) in those schools depending on the school's size. Again, we do not have ball boys. Worked two scrimmages and no mention of having any ball boys. So you keep trying to convince me of something that no one has a plan for. The state's solution was to approve more balls per game (something we already did BTW for bad weather games). It might have been well thought out at the local level with the people doing the experimental rules, but that does not mean it was well thought out by the others. Again, not the biggest deal, but there we did not take the college approach to this which is what my issue was from jump. And to me, this does not make everything perfect in football. IT is just a rule change. All NF rules changes are not well thought out. And it really was not well thought out if lower levels have 2 officials working games in many cases. Heck, we do not even have game clocks in many lower-level games at all. But hey, it was well thought out right? ;)

Just like other things the state could have said or put in a procedure for ball boys just like they do when it comes chain crews. They have a suggested procedure that we as officials can refer to and it is so common we do not have to even address basic things.

Peace

Correct. By local I meant the state of Illinois. That is 1 of 45 states doing this for the first time this year. That is very local. Based on what you have shared your state has a major issue understanding effective ball mechanics and game management. That's unfortunate and I agree there is only so much you guys can do about it. They have put you in a tough position. Hopefully someone is giving them feedback. "This will work if we made these 2 or 3 minor changes."

The person behind this not only has no experience in college football rules he despises us doing anything he considers a college mechanic or philosophy. He learned many crews were starting each series on a yard line to make measurements largely unnecessary and sent an email out telling us not to use that "college mechanic." It's not a college mechanic. It's just a good practice for game management when the specific spot doesn't matter (i.e. between the 10s). And our state has maybe 30 active HS officials who also do college (out of 900 licensed officials) so it was new to almost everyone when we started it.

My Week 1 takes:

1) a) ball boys did not follow me along the field - no change from 2018+
b) ball boys were slow on occasion to get me a new ball - no change from
2018+
c) ball boys once threw two balls in when I called for a new ball - no change
from 2018+

2) PCO apparently misunderstood R in pre-game when he was told that the
play clock would start on a 1st down after U checked the box and backed
away from the ball. Otherwise he was to go with the DBS, incomplete, or
TO signal of the covering official. He seemed to go off the U every play.

It happens. However, as the season progresses, and the play clock operators get more experience with the 40-second play clock, they will figure out how things work, so that by the time that the playoffs roll around, there won't be as many (or any) play clock issues.
This is from the series of growing pains, which can be alleviated through more education (e.g. Last year, you keyed off the Referee. Now, you need to see if the ball is dead. WHEN IT IS DEAD, start the 40-second play clock (usually the covering official will give a dead ball signal (raised hand), but other signals also trigger the 40-second play clock (incomplete pass or stop the clock [for ball carrier out of bounds or a first down])), UNLESS there is a flag or the officials stop the GAME (team timeout, official timeout, injury, measurement, change of possession etc.). When in doubt, we will help you by pumping up one hand to reset the play clock to 25 seconds and start it, or by pumping up two hands to reset the play clock to 40 seconds and start it. ), planning (having and instructing ball boys (in college games, this is one of the duties of the Field Judge and Side Judge; for high school games, this is on the Head Linesman and Line Judge, unless your state association uses 6 or 7 man crews.), establishing a ball rotation protocol for teams using multiple balls (either have both teams' balls on both sidelines, as in college, or have a way to quickly transfer balls between sidelines and send balls in when the ball goes outside the hashmarks (long incomplete passes, ball carrier out of bounds), etc.), and patience on the part of the game officials. There was a learning curve in some states when they decided to experiment with the 40-second play clock. They figured out ways to make it work, so it is very much possible that the other states will make it work as well.

You'll have those hiccups occasionally but once they get used to it, it will be fine. The more common issue we had was the game clock operator starting the clock after a first down in bounds and the R giving a silent wind.

25 or 40?
 

when does the play clock start after a kickoff? Thank You

When the Referee blows the RFP which is a 25-second clock.

Peace

Why is this an issue? The clock operator not watching? Or the R blowing? If the latter, I don't see that as a problem, though I don't blow my whistle unless I think I need to. The former should be taken care of in pregame.

To me, all plays, all codes, that end in bounds should keep the clock running.

NFHS 3-4-2 The game clock shall start with the RFP on a down beginning with a snap if the game clock was stopped for any reason other than specified in 3-4-3 or an untimed down:
a. For an official's TO.........

NFHS 3-4-3 "The game clock will start with the SNAP......If the game clock was stopped for: (reasons a-j including:)
b. B or R is awarded a new series.
c. Either team is awarded a new series after a legal kick
(A CONTINUOUS FIRST DOWN IS NOT LISTED)

NFHS 3-5-7 "An officials TO occurs during a dead ball:
b. When a 1st down is declared."

The game clock operator likely wasn't paying attention and he was used to a whistle starting the game clock after a first down in bounds. We are instructed to not blow a whistle in this case so the R would just wind and wind until the clock operator caught on or the ball was snapped. It maybe happened in 2 or 3 games the first year and once or twice the second year. Now it's rare, but it still occasionally happens.

Not really a big deal, either way, but....The Referee, blowing his whistle to announce the RFP (so that everyone, even those not specifically looking at him, understood the RFP was declared) worked pretty well for 100, or so, years.

Why such a big deal about changing that?

Because it resulted in too much variation in the time from dead ball to delay of game play to play and game to game. This was especially critical at the end of a half when a team is trying to burn as much time as possible and the crew is either placing the ball too quickly and thus not allowing the offense to burn as much time as they want or taking too much time and allowing the offense to burn more time than they should. The other impact is the offense that likes to take their time calling their play, getting to the line, using motion and shifts and snap toward the end of the play clock. If they are commonly getting 40-45 seconds to do this and then suddenly they only get 35 because the ball was placed quickly they have to rush or end up calling a time out or incurring a delay of game.

Other than that the 25-second play clock is OK, but the 40-second play clock allows for a much smoother and consistent flow and takes away one thing the referee has to worry about on many dead balls. The reported results from the trial states was almost unanimous that the officials and coaches much preferred it. That's a pretty solid endorsement.

I did not get it either, but I will be a good soldier and do it the way they suggest.

Peace

Why would anyone be against a procedure that insures greater consistency during a game? It’s one less thing for coaches to yell at us about.

Unfortunately, the consistency sought is predicated on a play clock operator understanding and implementing the instructions. Most all of our stadiums have a visible play clock for varsity game so our BJ's aren't keeping it except for some JV games. In the three weeks we've played, I've not heard a HC mention anything about the play clock during the game. Pre-game comments have pretty much been "We're learning". Putting an official on the job in our region is not possible given our numbers.

Our state office published the NFHS operator instructions on their website plus issued their own easier to read, simpler format. The state supervisor made sure that all AD's were aware of it.

Week 1)- My best guess is the PCO misunderstood the WH's instruction in pregame because he didn't set the :40 until the U backed away from the ball on every play. He had been told that would be only on a 1st down in-bounds with clock running for the U to insure the box was set. All other plays were to go off the DB or INC signal.

Week 2)- Don't recall any major issues.

Week 3)- All over the map. WH got frustrated and it really distracted him. He had asked the AD to have the PCO report to us for pre-game. I knew when the AD smiled and said "Oh, he's good, he's got it" we wouldn't be seeing him.

Because it is not administered consistently. There are already examples of people that do the clock not understanding things or doing something different. So not sure this rule is making things automatically consistently either, especially if not everyone can see the function of the clock.

Peace

Sorry, my question apparently wasn't clear. I was simply wondering why, when the actual 25 second RFP is declared, it's recommended to be done silently. For generations, the notice included both a wind, and a whistle (to announce to EVERYONE) that it happened.

Just wondering, what is the reason/purpose/benefit, if any, of changing it to "silent".

2 weeks in here.

Week 1 we had a visible play clock. Only had one issue where the PCO didn't start the 40-second clock correctly, which was corrected by having the PCO reset it to 25 after an officials timeout (which, according to the B, happened almost exactly when the 25-second notification happened on his ReadyRef).

I think there were a couple of times where we had to re-set to 25 after long incompletions (getting a new ball from the ball person? LOL), but it wasn't an issue really since the game clock is stopped in those situations anyway.

Week 2 we didn't have a visible play clock, so the B kept it on his ReadyRef. Again, there were 3 or 4 times where we had to reset to 25 after a long incompletion, but we just took care of that ourselves without the players/coaches noticing (the B would get on the O2O and let us know, but that was it).

I don't remember any DOG fouls in either game.

If the play clock is set to 25 after a change of possession/adminisitrative stop, etc. then you do blow your whistle with the RFP. The only time you don't is when you are winding the game clock after a first down in bounds. That is not necessarily when the ball is ready for play but I do actually like a quick toot when it happens. For now the NFHS mechanic says no. The NCAA mechanic went back and forth on that one and I think now it's up to each referee. In NCAA they are winding the game clock pretty quickly after the first down/runner out of bounds so the players are usually huddling or returning to their side of the ball (target is 34-35 seconds on the play clock).

The blowing of the whistle to announce RFP did that?? One of you is answering about timing while the other is asking about signaling.

I don't understand why clock operators are having issues. It's pretty easy. Play ends, reset the play clock and start. There isn't any more to it than that. if the crew has an administrative stop for some reason or there there was a change of possession/score. set it to 25 and wait for the ready. If you aren't sure set it to 40 and roll it. If there is a stop for some reason the R will give you a pump to set it to 25. The game clock is never rolling at that point so you aren't affecting that at all.

This has been reported as an issue but I put that blame mostly on the referee who doesn't know the rule. He's probably getting a lot of other rules wrong too if he doesn't understand this one. I've heard we still have some referees after 4 years who don't have that on straight. I'm guessing they are getting the game clock and play clock confused.

Ever since the WLAF experimented with this type of play clock 30 years ago, it's insured consistency in one thing at the expense of consistency in another. When you base the time to put the ball in play while the period clock is running on period clock time (which is what the 40 second clock does), you achieve greater consistency in the amount of time team A can take off period time. However, when you base it on the time from the RFP, you achieve greater consistency in the interval during which team A is allowed to put the ball in play.

One of those things matters to a team that's just looking to consume time, and of course to their opponents. The other matters to a team that likes to go no-huddle and use a lot of shifts and motions, threatening to put the ball in play at any moment. When the 40-second clock is in effect, they can't start doing that anyway until the RFP. Depending on when the RFP comes, the 40 second clock provides either more opportunity to team A to do that or more relief to team B in limiting team A's opportunity to do that, compared to the 25-second clock.

I do not know what to tell you. Clock operators at every sport I have ever done do not always do their job. Why? Not paying attention? Not focused at all times? On their phones? Think they have been doing this for a long time they will not screw up? Never done this before in life? Talking to someone else? I have no idea why, but it happens and happens more than I would like. I just know it was not perfectly done in college games, so why do we think that a high school game everything is going to be perfect?

Peace

We have a 3 strikes policy - after 3 mistakes, we shut down the clock (play or game) and keep it on the field. Hasn't come to that - yet - on Friday but occasionally does on Sat and other subvarsity (and we're not even using the 40 sec clock on sub-varsity, else we'd do it all the time).

Not exactly, but since you asked. The biggest obstacle to consistent Clock operation is....Distractions, which there is an unending, imaginative supply of. Like any other Officiating duty, focus is an acquired skill. Having the advantage (blessing) of working in an area where former Officials (1950s-60s) convinced schools that where field game clocks were used, they would be manned by ONLY certified, active Officials, which has served to minimize problems(and complaints) well.

However some general problems/issues persist and require special attention:

VISIBILITY: Some/many/most HS stadium Press boxes are not as high as we'd like, which causes problems seeing wing officials on both sidelines, especially the closest one, so "signalling" becomes really important. In a perfect world, when any official signals "incomplete" or "Stop the clock", ALL their crew mates repeat their signals, which aids the clock operator in seeing the signal. Some fields have MUCH BETTER lights, than others.

One of everyone's favorite improvements was the conversion to black official's pants, BUT (sadly) they disappear into the background more than the old white knickers, so clear, repetitive signalling has become more important.

Wing officials can get lost in front of either side "Team areas", so the consistently repeated signals of interior field officials is important, especially when the signal may be away from/behind the action. An extra swipe of a TO signal can be very helpful. Some fields allow a lot more people (cheerleaders, special guests, wanderers) along the rest of the sidelines (who tend to congregate along the goal line extended (when allowed to) which further hampers visibility & limits sideline officials movement (and safety)

Although a lot of different people are interested in what & when you signal, remember the ONE you're directing the signal to, is the clock operator. It's not a bad idea, when signalling note the time on the clock, which can help avoid some BS argument efforts. If the clock doesn't stop immediately, KEEP SIGNALLING until it does.

For better, or worse, we're all considered part of the same crew, are dependent on each other, and likely still searching for our FIRST perfect game (no matter how long we've been doing it).

That would be something that would help us, but often it is some guy that has been around the program or was thrown in to help the clock. I think this would help as we have people then that know or have a great understanding of rules and mechanics. Unfortunately, no one values this position from the school point of view until something bad happens. Even at the college level, we get people that have never played football, let alone know the clock rules. So we are dealing with some interesting issues.

Peace

My God, no. The covering official signals. He's the only one who blows his whistle, too.

If by extra you mean no more than 2, I agree. [/quote]

I am a HS AD now and I can tell you that we pay our clock operator the exact same as we pay the ticket taker. When I lived in the south, we had a certified official work the clock, but they also got paid as part of the officiating crew. Not going to happen here.

It's a habit for me to look at the clock EVERY TIME it's stopped or started, best I can. And we have to fix the time a fair amount, too. It's just what it is. Changing our mechanics like someone in this thread suggests isn't going to fix this. Hell, I'm always out in the open when I wind the clock and it doesn't always start, either.

The thing that bothers me the most is the operator who thinks he knows better than me and doesn't realize that he gets to make zero judgments -- he doesn't get to say "he hasn't spotted the ball so I won't start the clock" -- when I wind, it should start. That's the operator's job, to do what we tell him to do.

The distraction explanation is very valid. I've heard that many times and the couple times I've sat in a press box helping to run a clock it was easy to get distracted. And the press box wasn't very full when I did it! I'm sure a Friday night varsity game is crazy! I doubt the distraction is any better or worse based on play clock rule used. The silent game clock wind will be an adjustment for the game clock guy because he may rely on the whistle to zone in on starting the clock.

That’s just plain wrong.

Assuming that (under the old rule) the RFP was blown within 12-15 seconds after the end of the previous play, that provided a 37-40 second window to snap. The problem was that some R’s weren’t consistent in their pace of game.

Whether the game clock is running or dead has no bearing on the time period between the end of the previous play and the next snap.

Even under that generous assumption, that's still a variation of 3 seconds. 3 seconds that one team might want to have, and the other team not want them to have. If it didn't matter, this discussion wouldn't arise. It's not a matter of the time's being sufficient, but of its being fixed.
No, but the conditions that determine whether the game clock is running or not do.

If the amount of time allowed in which to play the ball didn't matter, why was that adopted and left unchanged since so long ago? The 40 second clock or something like it could've been adopted in 1940; why wasn't it? What's changed about the game or people's opinions of it? Was it that nobody much noticed until visible clocks came into use?

If I had to venture a guess I would say the assumption was we were generally being consistent if we blew the RFP in 12-15 seconds that was good enough. Then several years ago someone in the NFL came up with the idea of starting a play clock at the end of the play. It's a fairly simple idea but it solves the consistency issue. They did it for several years and then the NCAA adopted it. Everyone there liked it and someone on the rules committee though, "hmmm...that might be a good idea to add to our rules." And they following the process for 4-5 years and it was finally approved.

Things evolve in the game all the time and even though they seem simple and obvious it's sometimes out of the box thinking. A 25-second play clock isn't a bad thing. It generally works fine. But for many the 40/25 provides for a much smoother game and pace. The experiment states all had rave reviews about it. All the new states seem to be a little slower out of the gate and some of that may be resistance to wanting to adopt it. But if done right it really is a smoother and consistent pace.

[/QUOTE]

I'm surprised, that may be related to which version of Rome you happen to work in. EACH/ALL the locations I've worked in (6) recommended 3 swipes for a TO signal and wanted ALL the field officials to repeat both the whistle & signal when ANY official killed the play (& clock) so that everybody, no matter where they were on the field, knew the play was over, the ball was dead and all the action should STOP.

Oh God no. Never told to repeat a signal or whistle. If you recognized the ball is dead, we could have multiple whistles, but not unless you are clearly ruling it that way. Otherwise, the calling official will have the only signal and whistle. Now with a first down gained, then it might be multiple officials because you have recognized this takes place, but not just because someone else gives the signal. But for the most part, you do nothing in those cases. Same goes for a TD signal. Only the covering official(s) give the signal. So if that means one official gives the signal, then that is all we need. I even tell the clock people you might have to look for one official doing something, we are not repeating or mirroring such situations.

Peace

Didn't mean to apply "mirroring" someone else's signals is appropriate, It's generally not, with the exception of STOPPING play. That 1st whistle ENDS the play EVERYWHERE, right, wrong or indifferent. Secondary whistles simply announce to everyone else that the play HAS BEEN ended (so EVERYONE should stop playing, and hopefully avoid doing something unnecessary, now that the ball has been declared DEAD.)

Inside officials (Umpire, Referee, opposite Wing) repeating TO signals can be extremely helpful in avoiding unnecessary problems with delayed clock stoppages caused by the initial signal not being visible to the clock operator (especially when a wing official may be obscured by the congestion in the Team Box area.)

As a clock operator for college, I can say that having multiple officials stopping the clock can help -- especially when the play ends near one sideline (so I am watching that official to see if the play ended in bounds or out of bounds) and an official not near the play has a stoppage (TO from the "opposite" team, or a flag away from the play, for example). If more officials echo the stop clock, I am more likely to pick it up sooner.

OTOH, it can also be confusing: a fumble, a scrum, the ball ends up near the line to gain, one official peers in the pile and winds the clock; another comes running in and stops the clock; 5 others do nothing (I am sure they are doing something--just nothing that affects the clock).

And, yes, -- there's a lot going on up there, and most of us are wearing multiple hats during the game.

They tested it first in the WLAF with a 35 second clock. That was one of the reasons for the WLAF: to be a test bed for rules. 35 seconds was found to be unbearably fast, so when the NFL finally did adopt it, they made it 45, which turned out to be unbearably slow.

Whatever, it seems the rules makers have decided that out of this:

DEAD BALL......................................RFP..... ...............................TIME UP

they're more concerned that the total interval be fixed, rather than the interval from RFP to "delay of game".

But then, sometimes they make goofy decisions in that regard. At one time they limited only time in the huddle. Then when they realized time could be wasted "on the line" (officials' judgment as to when that became delay of game), they started limiting both time in the huddle and total time, before someone asked why anyone should care how much of the total time to play the ball the team spent in the huddle.

I agree it might be easier to see, but if you have a tight spot where the line to gain is not clearly reached, it would make little sense and would be improper if the Back Judge stops the clock and the player was not out of bounds. You only give that signal as a Back Judge if we are way past that line or it is 4th down, where it does not matter if the LTG is reached. And certainly at the college level we might get asked why we are killing the clock on a play we are not ruling. Just not a good practice for us to use.

Well on a long delay or clearly a pile after a fumble or loose ball, we are to stop the clock to dig if there is not clear possession beforehand. So you may have an official not near the pile stop the clock.

Well, that clearly seems to be the case because of how often we have to correct clock issues at the college level.

Peace

Well I can tell you that again we do not on my crew or most crews I have worked with, blow our whistle on plays we do not see. Even if it is obvious. Players in my experience know when the play is over and often stop. Yes if there are players that are clearly still playing or cannot stop, there might be a whistle from that covering official, but that is not very common. If I do not see leather, I am not blowing my whistle. I am more likely to use my voice or yell at players the "ball is dead" or something so they know what to do at that point. But blowing a whistle for the most part and not ruling on something is a big no-no here. All it takes is that one time.

I was a Back Judge on my crew for years with a playoff crew, I probably only blew my whistle on incomplete passes or very long runs. Otherwise, I would never blow my whistle. I am a Referee on the same crew now if the play does not end in the backfield, I do not blow my whistle at all. And even in the backfield it better be at my feet. As I said many plays end without a single whistle.

Peace

I am in complete agreement with you here. I'm now an umpire (was an LJ when I created this profile) and I'm sure there are games where I never blow my whistle. Most common instance would be a false start or to alert the crew I had a foul. The only time I do it to signal the end of a play is on a kickoff when I'm the covering official on the return. On regular scrimmage plays I spit out my whistle and use my voice to let players know "plays over!"

To me it's a sign of a good crew when I hear one whistle end a play the vast majority of the time.

And vice versa.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

We don’t echo whistles. We DO mirror “stop the clock.”

I will at times do that on an obvious first down without a whistle.

I don't want the crew mirroring my wind, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Good idea, if ever there was a situation perfectly fitting the advice, "One size NEVER fits all", it's a football game, especially considering the enormous span in the maturity, experience, skill, talent and physical abilities of the participant as well as the progressive complexity of how the game is played, and managed, at different levels.

Last night the timer came to our locker room. Has been doing it a long time. Nice guy.

I warned him that my wind after a first down inbounds could be really quick -- maybe a second after the clock stops if the ball is inside the hash marks.

Then I found myself winding....and winding....and winding.....

At some point the timers will catch on, but I am not changing our mechanics. They need to adapt to us, not us adapt (forever) to them.

I would say 1 second is REALLY quick. The NCAA guideline is 4-5 seconds on first downs and out of bounds (the latter obviously doesn't apply to us) and that's pretty quick. The umpire doesn't even have the ball and the box hasn't moved in 1 second. The HS game is not that long that we have to be in a hurry to get the clock started.

1 second is probably an exaggeration in reality. :)

I just wanted him to be watching. He wasn't, not all the time.

It's quicker, though, than when I had to give a RFP whistle/signal.

Wow. When NCAA first adopted the business of stopping the clock to reset the chain -- close to 50 years ago -- that provision didn't even reference the ready-for-play. It just provided for time out of the period while that marker was being moved, independently of when the ball was ready for play -- which is weird to my mind. (At that time, when it was goal to go, the front stick was placed on the sideline with the chain stretched in the end zone, same as it would've been in the field of play, rather than laid down.) It did noticeably lengthen games, enough to increase scoring.

Unfortunately, "watching" doesn't guarantee "seeing". There are inescapable factors unique to EACH game site: including,

Lighting: (Some a lot better than others).
Height of the "PressBox": (Higher is usually better)
Team Box Area: (Wing officials blend in & disappear in front of Team Box)
Uniforms: Conversion to Black pants (from white knickers) was a God send, BUT, they make officials a lot less easily identified.)
Signaler's location: Signals given from close to &/or the far side of the mass of player humanity, can be totally invisible to the Press Box. Whereas signals given from empty space apart from congestion are FAR MORE visible. (not always possible, but worth considering)
Sideline Signals: (BOTH sides, officials disappear infront of, or behind Team Box areas. Repeating T/O wing signals by U, BJ or R are VERY helpful.
Time signalling: When signalling, when possible watch the clock, and keep signalling until it stops


As I'm sure most understand, once the ball is snapped, all sorts of things start to happen, and the view from the Press Box is not the same, or as specific as the one seen on a TV screen.

Some fields offer a LOT BETTER "seeing", than others, and the only one that matters is the field YOUR GAME is being played on, so adjustment may be necessary.

Unfortunately, "watching" doesn't guarantee "seeing". There are inescapable factors unique to EACH game site:

Lighting: (Some a lot better than others).
Height of the "PressBox": (Higher is usually better)
Team Box Area: (Wing officials blend in & disappear in front of Team Box)
Uniforms: Conversion to Black pants (from white knickers) was a God send, BUT, they make officials a lot less easily identified.)
Signaler's location: Signals given from close to &/or the far side of the mass of player humanity, can be totally invisible to the Press Box. Whereas signals given from empty space apart from congestion are FAR MORE visible.
Sideline Signals: (BOTH sides, officials disappear infront of, or behind Team Box areas. Repeating T/O wing signals by U, BJ or R are VERY helpful.
Time signalling: When signalling, when possible watch the clock, and keep signalling until it stops


As I'm sure most understand, once the ball is snapped, all sorts of things start to happen, and the view from the Press Box is not the same, nor as specific as the one seen on a TV screen.

Some fields offer a LOT BETTER "seeing", than others, and the only one that matters is the field YOUR GAME is being played on.

Unfortunately, "watching" doesn't guarantee "seeing". There are inescapable factors unique to EACH game site:

Lighting: (Some a lot better than others).
Height of the "PressBox": (Higher is usually better)
Team Box Area: (Wing officials blend in & disappear in front of Team Box)
Uniforms: Conversion to Black pants (from white knickers) was a God send, BUT, they make officials a lot less easily identified.)
Signaler's location: Signals given from close to &/or the far side of the mass of player humanity, can be totally invisible to the Press Box. Whereas signals given from empty space apart from congestion are FAR MORE visible.
Sideline Signals: (BOTH sides, officials disappear infront of, or behind Team Box areas. Repeating T/O wing signals by U, BJ or R are VERY helpful.
Time signalling: When signalling, when possible watch the clock, and keep signalling until it stops


As I'm sure most understand, once the ball is snapped, all sorts of things start to happen, and the view from the Press Box is not the same, nor as specific as the one seen on a TV screen.

Some fields offer a LOT BETTER "seeing", than others, and the only one that matters is the field YOUR GAME is being played on, so adjustments may be necessary.

Our instruction is that we're to wind independent of the chains/box moving. It's all about the ball being placed -- and when the umpire steps away, it's RFP *by rule*. The clock should be started then. It may be started before the umpire steps away -- it's really when I'm OK with A snapping the football.

[

That's when it makes the most sense.

I don't know what NCAA's reasoning was circa 1970, but I might guess that they were thinking team A should not be losing (or taking) time off the period clock when they couldn't see the line to gain. Yeah, it's dumb -- they knew it was first and ten/goal, what more could they need -- but it's all I can think of. The more cynical thought it was just to get in more scoring (or more plays) in the contest against pro football for popularity with audiences.