### Not the same... the rules for the clock starting on the snap after a legal scrimmage kick are not the same as the rules for taking over after a fumble.
This play is not a change of possession. Team-A had the ball to start, they have the ball again to continue.

if this is not a change of possession, why would it be A's ball 1st and 10. if what you say is true it would be third down. this is a change of possession, no doubt about it. the clock starts on the snap. if B doesnt fumble, the clock starts on the snap. there is no difference, it is a change of possession.

It starts on the READY. 3-4-2a and 3-4-3b

Only starts on the snap if B gets a new series. When all else fails, check the rule book!

### In your example, it starts on the SNAP because team-B was awarded a first down. If you prefer, then call this a mutiple change of possession. The point is that Team-A was NOT awarded a first down, they made a first down because something call the the continuity of downs changed because team-B had team possession at one time during the down. They lost the ball, team-A receovered, It's first down for Team-A and the clock starts on the RFP.

It would only start on the SNAP if this were a down in which a scrimmage kick was made and team-B fumbled it away.

How long have you been an official? This is basic stuff here.

yankeesfan:

I am a NCAA only guy but I do know Theisey and have witnessed his postings for several years. Here is a clue: If he says it, you need to believe it. Not sure how many years you have been reffing but stick around here with him and some of the other well-versed Fed guys and you are going to learn more in a shorter period of time than you ever have since you started tootin' the whistle.

i took this to the state interpretor and he said it starts on the snap. he doesn't understand why you dont think it is a change of possession. maybe in your state it is not a change of possession but in our state it is. it definetely starts on the snap and you start whenever you want to. i hope there is not 5 seconds left in the game when you do this and the team needs to get a play off to win the game, you will need security to get of that field.

How long have you been an official? This is basic stuff here. [/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE]

Which state is your State Interpretor from - the state of confusion? It is beyond me why this discussion is now 3 pages long. All one has to do is read Rule 3-4-3a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h, and i. This rule lists each and every situation in which the clock will start on the snap. There are no others. In this play, none of the criteria necessary to start the clock on the snap are met. Appox. half of the people who I have presented this situation to think incorrectly that the clock starts on the snap because there was a change of posession. In b, c, and d there is, coincidently, a change of posession, but that is not the criterion for deciding to start the clock on the snap or the ready.

i hope there is not 5 seconds left in the game when you do this and the team needs to get a play off to win the game, you will need security to get of that field.

How long have you been an official? This is basic stuff here. [/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE]

I would hope that "A" is not able to get a game winning play off because we gave them additional time that they are not entitled to by rule. If we did that, we might need security to get off the field - IF, and that is a very big "IF", the fans actually knew the rule.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Which state is your State Interpretor from - the state of confusion? It is beyond me why this discussion is now 3 pages long. All one has to do is read Rule 3-4-3a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h, and i. This rule lists each and every situation in which the clock will start on the snap. There are no others. In this play, none of the criteria necessary to start the clock on the snap are met. Appox. half of the people who I have presented this situation to think incorrectly that the clock starts on the snap because there was a change of posession. In b, c, and d there is, coincidently, a change of posession, but that is not the criterion for deciding to start the clock on the snap or the ready.
[/B][/QUOTE]

what if it was 4th and 5 and team A punts to team B and after team be has possession he fumbles and team A recovers? according to this the clock would start on the ready for play because it is a continuation from when A had the ball. i have asked about 20 refs at our meeting and they all say on the snap. i know i am beating a dead horse but i just want to get the call right, thats all. in the situation i just gave when would the clock start?

Which state is your State Interpretor from - the state of confusion? It is beyond me why this discussion is now 3 pages long. All one has to do is read Rule 3-4-3a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h, and i. This rule lists each and every situation in which the clock will start on the snap. There are no others. In this play, none of the criteria necessary to start the clock on the snap are met. Appox. half of the people who I have presented this situation to think incorrectly that the clock starts on the snap because there was a change of posession. In b, c, and d there is, coincidently, a change of posession, but that is not the criterion for deciding to start the clock on the snap or the ready.
[/B][/QUOTE]

what if it was 4th and 5 and team A punts to team B and after team be has possession he fumbles and team A recovers? according to this the clock would start on the ready for play because it is a continuation from when A had the ball. i have asked about 20 refs at our meeting and they all say on the snap. i know i am beating a dead horse but i just want to get the call right, thats all. in the situation i just gave when would the clock start? [/B][/QUOTE]

what if it was 4th and 5 and team A punts to team B and after team be has possession he fumbles and team A recovers? according to this the clock would start on the ready for play because it is a continuation from when A had the ball. i have asked about 20 refs at our meeting and they all say on the snap. i know i am beating a dead horse but i just want to get the call right, thats all. in the situation i just gave when would the clock start? [/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, in the play above, the clock would start on the snap because of rule 3-4-3c - "Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick." This is not the same as the "int, fumble by "B", recover by "A". There was no legal kick during the down.

Where are you getting the term "continuation"? I do not think that "continuation is used anywhere in the NF rulebook.

Hope this clears thing up for you.

REPLY: I really don't mean this as an offense to you, your state interpreter, or the 20 or so officials from your local association, but...they're all wrong. The clock starts on the ready. The Federation rule book codifies precisely what clock stoppages result in the clock starting on the snap in NF 3-4-3. Where do you see anything that infers that this case (an A-B-A double change of possession) should be included??

to tell you the truth, i dont see anything in rule 3-4 that supports this situation one way or the other. not one person i have talked with thinks it starts on the ready. can you lead me to the exact statement that says it start on the ready? i would appreciate it. everyone i talk with says because it is a change of possession so it starts on the snap. what can i show them to prove them wrong? this is not clearly defined in the rulebook and maybe it should be, a multiple change of possession. i dont see anything in rule 3-4-3, but i dont see it in the rules under start with the reay for play either. please clear this up for me, i dont mean to be disrespectful, i just want to do whats right.

[Edited by yankeesfan on Oct 27th, 2003 at 10:50 PM]

The reason the clock starts on the ready is that A is given a new series. The list of times when the clock starts on the snap is listed in the rules. All other times, the clock starts on the ready. It does not explicitly say the clock starts on the ready in the original play BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HAVE TO.

If the clock was meant to be stopped there, the rule would say "when either team gets a new series." The rule specifically only mentions B. If this isn't good enough for you then you'll just have to continue to be wrong with the rest of your association.

Rich is correct. When all else fails, use the rule book.


End of discussion. Let's move on.