As a coach, I am not sure, even after having re-read the rule book, what the correct call is, so I thought I would pose this question on this board.

1. A has 2 and 10 from B 30.
2. A throws interception to B.
3. B returns the ball to B 23 then fumbles.
4. A recovers.
5. Officials mark the ball ready to play in A possession, but as a 3rd and 3. Rationale provided: down begins with A in possession, down ends with A in possession, line to gain was not acheived, therefore, no new series awarded.

But as I reviewed the Rule book, it seems to me that rule 5-1-3-d specifically applies:
"The team in possession at the end of the down, if there is a change of team possession during the down, unless the penalty is accepted for a foul which occurred before the change of possession."

There were no penalties on the play. It seems very clear to me that a new series should have been awarded...first and 10 for A at the B 23.

As it turned out, this particular call did not cost us the game...but it could have.

Any thoughts on the correct call?

You've got it right. Should have been first and ten.

It would also be 1st and 10 for NCAA as well. This type of play can catch you off guard as an official and everyone needs to be alert as to what occured. If you see something like that in the future it may just take a coaches conference with the referee and he should realize the mistake and correct it.

After change of possession, it will be first and 10 for someone.

Thanks for asking. I like it when coaches get involved in rules discussions. (not on the field) :)

One additional detail, however. The clock will start on the ready due to a new series for A...NOT on the snap, despite the two changes of possession.

It starts on the snap only if B is awarded a new series.

rdfox,

I have seen some discussion about this "double change of possession" (possibly on this message board) clock starting on ready to play, but I can't find that in the rule book any where. I don't doubt that it exists (because it seems logical to me), however I have been unable to find it. Please advise what section covers this. Thanks.

JustMy - read the section about the clock. If the play does not fit into the descriptions of plays where the clock starts on the snap, then it starts on the ready.

Also - consider the reasons we start the clock on the snap instead of the ready. In the situations where we start on the snap, there is usually a long expected delay (offense leaving the field as defense comes on (change of possession); most players off the field (out of bounds); many players far downfield needing to return to initial LOS (incomplete pass), etc). In this situations, the right personnel are on the field, and there is no anticipated long delay. I realize this is not actually written into the rules this way ... but it's the intent of the rules as written, and is consistent with starting on the ready on the described play.

That makes perfect sense, Mike. Thanks.

Mike,

I asked our game officials before our game Friday night about this particular instance. The ruling that we were given (NFHS rules) was that the clock will not start on the ready. They interpret the rules to mean that any change of possession requires the clock to start on the snap vice the ready.

REPLY: Not true! NF 3-4-3 says that the clock starts on the snap when a new series is awarded <b>to B</b> only -- not to Team A. In your play, the new series was awarded to (or was <u>supposed</u> to be awarded to) Team A. Clock on the ready.

Bob,

That is the exact rule that I brought up with the set of officials working our game Friday night. And they said, as Mike pointed out, that the INTENT of the rule is what matters -- change of possession, clock starts on the snap. As a matter of fact, I read the officials the entire section of clock starting on the snap. After which, the WH took the rule book from me and read it for himself. Then WH gave us the interpretation that they would use in the game -- that the clock would start on the snap.

By the way, this was not confrontational discourse. This happened before the game, when we were going over the the preliminaries, such as how long halftime will be, etc. In fact the crew working the game hadn't even gotten dressed yet. I don't want to give the wrong impression, that this happened during the middle of the game on the sideline with me pulling out the rule book to prove the officials wrong. I don't think I gave that impression, but I wanted to make sure that I was perfectly clear about it.

Do you see why coaches can get frustrated about these situations?

I hope your official talked it over with someone else after the game... because he was wrong.

I like The Official Forum because I see lots of real situations and I get a chance to see others discuss it. Good food for thought. It forces me to get into the rule book. I have my book right next to my computer.

After reading the discussion about starting the clock after 2 changes of possession on the same down (NF), I have to say that it should start on the ready for play. When all else fails, I go to the rule book. 3-4-2a and 3-4-3b We don't have any discretion in setting aside the rules.

It makes sense. A already has the ball. No need to give extra time. I am sure the rules committee thought of this way back when, when this rule was put in.

This is a very interesting discussion. One of things I have done over the years is keep a library of rule and case books for just this kind of situation.

The rule regarding when the clock starts was changed in 1996. The reason for the change was referees often varied their time in starting the play clock when a change of possession occurred, especially, near the end of a game. The rule change was made to "correct this inconsistent pattern of timing based upon making the ball ready-for-play." By starting the clock on the snap, a referee would not have to adjust is timing because of the situation.

That said, I would start the clock on the snap because even though A retains possession there was an intervening possession change during the down and the start of a new series. The clock, by rule, will be stopped to move the chains. But, the players and coaches may be in chaos because of the multiple change of possessions and that meets the spirit and intent of the rule.

I could be incorrect and would love to see a case situation presented.

Mr Ed.
If you have a copy of the 2002 Officials Study Guide for NFHS Football Rules 2002, then case play 7-5 on page 59 is just what the doctor ordered.


A gets a first down and the clock starts on the ready.
It pains me to read that we have officials that make errors on what seems to me to be a very basic play situation.

Consistency, gentlemen, consistency...that is all we coaches ask.

Right now, the count stands at 5-1 in favor of starting the clock on the ready.

As a coach, I don't really care one way or the other. I just need to know how it will be enforced, so that I can coach accordingly.

One thing to add to the scenario that I didn't mention before, there was under a minute of clock time remaining in a game that was 35-34.

Obviously, the call went against us with the 3rd down. But even if it had been called correctly, the clock starting on the ready or the snap does matter.

Cause if it starts on the ready, I have to spike the ball...if it starts on the snap, I can run a play.

Yes, one call does matter in a football game. I am sorry that I don't buy into the propaganda that one play doesn't make the difference. Ask Dante Hall for the Chiefs if his punt return against the Ravens made a difference (might as well ask him if the next week against the Broncos made a difference)...ask Ahman Green if his fumble against the Chiefs made a difference...ask Callahan if his player getting tackled at the 1 yard line with time expiring made a difference. And those are examples that have happened THIS YEAR alone. Luckily, none of those involve penalties, but, yes, my friends, one play, one call, one mismatch can be the difference in a football game.

We should all be accountable to do the right thing everytime.

And what is really scary Tom is that Ed (and other excellent officials like him) are teaching guys around the country. I don't do Fed rules but I know from reading Ed's stuff that is pretty sharp on them. If he had told me, before I read all the other responses, that the clock started on the snap under Fed rules, I would have bought it, no question (even though it would be on the ready in our (NCAA) rules.

And Coach 2cents....1 play/call does not decide a game. What about the 40 - 50 other plays the team ran that did not result in scores due to errors by the players or bad play calls by the coaches? They bear no responsibility for the out come of the game. Everything has to be taken into totality. It is far too simplistic to just say 1 call or even a few calls cost a game when each team is running anywhere from 40 - 60 plays a game.

[Edited by TXMike on Oct 22nd, 2003 at 01:36 PM]

On the ready.

TXMike,

At some point in a game, the next play LITERALLY decides the game, because it is the last play...which is what I purport was the circumstance in the NC game last year.

If there is a foul, there literally is another play. If there is no foul, there literally is not another play. Therefore, that foul determined the outcome of the game.

One possible outcome: no foul, Miami wins, game over, see ya next year.

The other: foul, there is at least one more play.

Maybe it's semantics, maybe I am just bullheaded, maybe I am ignorant, but in this instance, in that particular game, one play did decide whether the game was over, with one team winning or not.

Coach:

How can you continue to ignore that there were over 50 other plays, that if the coaches and or kids had executed correctly would have made the last one immaterial?

TXMike,

The reason is because I can't do anything about things that happened in the past. Period. All I can do is help the players to be successful on the next play. That is all I have to work with. So as the clock runs down, each play becomes more and more critical. When we get to the last play of the game, we have to make sure all things are right by everyone -- coaches, players, officials, everyone with a vested interest in a particular game.

You are right, usually this doesn't happen. But sometimes it does, as was the case described.

Just2cents, To say "We should all be accountable to do the right thing everytime." is insulting. First off, I believe the majority of the officials on this site do not have the luxury of instant replay. Of course we strive to make the right call everytime. But in reality, if you're working a varsity game with a 4 or 5 man crew, you only have so many eyes and vantage points to make a call from. In NCAA, the 7 man crew gains several more angle to view a play from, but you still only have a split second to decide what you have. I'm not trying to make excuse for officials, but it is reality that you are going to find mistakes in our games when you watch them on film in slow motion. And you will notice that 98% of the time the official did make the right call. That percentage I'm sure drops as the level of play decreases also. I must also say that even though last last play of the game appears to have decided the game, the 35 to 40 other plays did also. If that wasn't true, we might as well let each team run one play, announce the winner, and go have beer and pizza.

Here is A thought on the correct call: "1st and 10 for A at B's 23. After the box is set, wind it." That is my quick face value answer.
BUT, wait a second a few more thoughts creep into mind on this single play...
you mention nothing about the status of the game clock. Did time in the quarter expire during the play? That makes a difference.
???????A throws an interception to B. Where? At the 10? At the 30? Is the bean bag there?
B returns ball to B23 (gaining yardage or losing yardage?) Eyes open for those blocks in the back and clips.
Then fumbles. Piling on? Or did the ball squirt out?
Which direction did he fumble? Illegal forward Pass?
A recovers. Where? The 30? The 23? The 10? Is the bean bag there? Is A down? or do we still have a live ball? Did B tackle him? Did he go out of bounds? Did he just take a knee?
There were no penalties on the play. OR none that were called or observed? Which of the coaches WASN'T on the field for that play?
Are all the guys downfield eligible? Did that hand brush across the face mask, or did the hand grab? Why is the coach asking me "Didn't you see that obvious holding?"
Get the box set because we have a new series of downs. I am waving to stop the clock at the end of this play aren't I? The clock is or is not stopped like I want. Better make sure I hold the spot. Make sure to swivel the head for the dead ball fouls. Recover the beanbags. Get the ball set. Signal to the other officials the status of play.
After that HALF second, a whole new crop of thoughts creep in?

Plus the wise-@ss HL commenting on the great bagging of the interception spot.

yes it starts with the ready. This pretty basic

Patton,

I didn't intend that to be insulting...I believe that everyone does try to do the best he can in every situation, and therein lies the accountability.

seanireland,

Are you sure you didn't miss something? And what took you so long to rule? Half second...come on...you know that we coaches need rulings quicker. (that is sarcasm for anyone that is having a hard time spotting my facetiousness)

Last comment by me on this topic:

I feel as if I didn't give the crew working our game Friday night their due, they did everything in their immediate power to make the situation right.

1) The coaches and the officials discussed this particular instance prior to the game, while we had the luxury of no pressure at the time for anyone.
2) The officials informed us coaches how they were going to rule on the particular play should it arise in the game.
3) The officials admitted that we had brought up some valid points about the situation that caused them to rethink the ruling and to verify with superiors how this particular play should be handled.
4) We coaches were told that once they had received the ruling from superiors, they would get back to us.
5) Yesterday, we received a call stating the ruling would be that the clock starts on the ready.

In my opinion, the officials working the game Friday night did everything right.

Coach,
I'm POSITIVE I missed something. As AndrewMcCarthy said about the bagging of the interception. That only happens if B intercepts inside the 5 and his momentum takes him into the end zone.
Thanks AndrewMcCarthy.
I wasn't being sarcastic. I wanted to give the officials an opportunity to see inside my head on the play. With practice, it will get to be instantaneous because the coaches, players, fans, and other officials deserve that. In the meantime, I'll keep posting and asking stupid questions because those are the ones that seem to get the smartest and wisest answers.
Besides, if I don't get my stupid questions answered, then I am not learning a thing. I am sure you got your answer to your question, but so did I. That is, "bag if momentum is involved" OM Use of bean bag.
Please post more coach. The official you make think about stuff may be doing YOUR game someday.

Proper Use of the bean bag
 

It sounds as some here are stingy about using the bean bag.

I like to use it once in a while. I'd rather mark a spot with it than not catch the late hit out of bounds. Sure, the guys don't do it on TV. But they have 7 officials and another "wing" to clean up the players. We don't have that. We have a beanbag for the spot and ourselves to officiate the players.

It's a communication tool, too. If I bag a loose ball, I just told my partners that I had a fumble -- it's not incomplete, the runner was not down. It's a useful tool.

The other night I had an interception where the MX did not come into play. The defensive player caught the ball stumbling forward and fell with the ball just inside the endzone. His movement forward caused him to roll to the 1-2. I dropped a bag inside the endzone and signalled a touchback. Redundant? Sure. But I thought the play warranted some extra communication and I gave it.

I know some of you have anal-retentive evaluators and I guess I'm lucky in that we don't have any of that here. Do what is required in your area.

Rich

the clock will start on the snap, because it is a change of possession. 1st and 10 for a. this would be he same as taking over after a punt.

Coach 2cents wants consistency because he can plan around it. Can't blame him a bit and we should give it to him.

As for what to call on this particular play, this situation is what in legal profession is called a case of "first impression" in that there may not be a case that set the precedence. I stand corrected on when to start the clock because there is an NFHS case book ruling. However, without it you have to rely on what you know of the spirit and intent of the rules. If you understand the fundamentals of the rules you can justify about any ruling you make -- scary but true.

When Dick Schindler wrote the revision in 1996 he sought to develop a standard to keep referees from variations in timing based upon game situations. If Coach 2cents situation had occurred in the middle of the first quarter there would not have been reason to hurry. But in the 4th quarter with a team trying to score when the ball is made ready is oh so important. One is left to wonder if Schindler was still rule book editor would be interpretation had been the same.

### Not the same... the rules for the clock starting on the snap after a legal scrimmage kick are not the same as the rules for taking over after a fumble.
This play is not a change of possession. Team-A had the ball to start, they have the ball again to continue.

if this is not a change of possession, why would it be A's ball 1st and 10. if what you say is true it would be third down. this is a change of possession, no doubt about it. the clock starts on the snap. if B doesnt fumble, the clock starts on the snap. there is no difference, it is a change of possession.

It starts on the READY. 3-4-2a and 3-4-3b

Only starts on the snap if B gets a new series. When all else fails, check the rule book!

### In your example, it starts on the SNAP because team-B was awarded a first down. If you prefer, then call this a mutiple change of possession. The point is that Team-A was NOT awarded a first down, they made a first down because something call the the continuity of downs changed because team-B had team possession at one time during the down. They lost the ball, team-A receovered, It's first down for Team-A and the clock starts on the RFP.

It would only start on the SNAP if this were a down in which a scrimmage kick was made and team-B fumbled it away.

How long have you been an official? This is basic stuff here.

yankeesfan:

I am a NCAA only guy but I do know Theisey and have witnessed his postings for several years. Here is a clue: If he says it, you need to believe it. Not sure how many years you have been reffing but stick around here with him and some of the other well-versed Fed guys and you are going to learn more in a shorter period of time than you ever have since you started tootin' the whistle.

i took this to the state interpretor and he said it starts on the snap. he doesn't understand why you dont think it is a change of possession. maybe in your state it is not a change of possession but in our state it is. it definetely starts on the snap and you start whenever you want to. i hope there is not 5 seconds left in the game when you do this and the team needs to get a play off to win the game, you will need security to get of that field.

How long have you been an official? This is basic stuff here. [/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE]

Which state is your State Interpretor from - the state of confusion? It is beyond me why this discussion is now 3 pages long. All one has to do is read Rule 3-4-3a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h, and i. This rule lists each and every situation in which the clock will start on the snap. There are no others. In this play, none of the criteria necessary to start the clock on the snap are met. Appox. half of the people who I have presented this situation to think incorrectly that the clock starts on the snap because there was a change of posession. In b, c, and d there is, coincidently, a change of posession, but that is not the criterion for deciding to start the clock on the snap or the ready.

i hope there is not 5 seconds left in the game when you do this and the team needs to get a play off to win the game, you will need security to get of that field.

How long have you been an official? This is basic stuff here. [/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE]

I would hope that "A" is not able to get a game winning play off because we gave them additional time that they are not entitled to by rule. If we did that, we might need security to get off the field - IF, and that is a very big "IF", the fans actually knew the rule.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Which state is your State Interpretor from - the state of confusion? It is beyond me why this discussion is now 3 pages long. All one has to do is read Rule 3-4-3a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h, and i. This rule lists each and every situation in which the clock will start on the snap. There are no others. In this play, none of the criteria necessary to start the clock on the snap are met. Appox. half of the people who I have presented this situation to think incorrectly that the clock starts on the snap because there was a change of posession. In b, c, and d there is, coincidently, a change of posession, but that is not the criterion for deciding to start the clock on the snap or the ready.
[/B][/QUOTE]

what if it was 4th and 5 and team A punts to team B and after team be has possession he fumbles and team A recovers? according to this the clock would start on the ready for play because it is a continuation from when A had the ball. i have asked about 20 refs at our meeting and they all say on the snap. i know i am beating a dead horse but i just want to get the call right, thats all. in the situation i just gave when would the clock start?

Which state is your State Interpretor from - the state of confusion? It is beyond me why this discussion is now 3 pages long. All one has to do is read Rule 3-4-3a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h, and i. This rule lists each and every situation in which the clock will start on the snap. There are no others. In this play, none of the criteria necessary to start the clock on the snap are met. Appox. half of the people who I have presented this situation to think incorrectly that the clock starts on the snap because there was a change of posession. In b, c, and d there is, coincidently, a change of posession, but that is not the criterion for deciding to start the clock on the snap or the ready.
[/B][/QUOTE]

what if it was 4th and 5 and team A punts to team B and after team be has possession he fumbles and team A recovers? according to this the clock would start on the ready for play because it is a continuation from when A had the ball. i have asked about 20 refs at our meeting and they all say on the snap. i know i am beating a dead horse but i just want to get the call right, thats all. in the situation i just gave when would the clock start? [/B][/QUOTE]

what if it was 4th and 5 and team A punts to team B and after team be has possession he fumbles and team A recovers? according to this the clock would start on the ready for play because it is a continuation from when A had the ball. i have asked about 20 refs at our meeting and they all say on the snap. i know i am beating a dead horse but i just want to get the call right, thats all. in the situation i just gave when would the clock start? [/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, in the play above, the clock would start on the snap because of rule 3-4-3c - "Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick." This is not the same as the "int, fumble by "B", recover by "A". There was no legal kick during the down.

Where are you getting the term "continuation"? I do not think that "continuation is used anywhere in the NF rulebook.

Hope this clears thing up for you.

REPLY: I really don't mean this as an offense to you, your state interpreter, or the 20 or so officials from your local association, but...they're all wrong. The clock starts on the ready. The Federation rule book codifies precisely what clock stoppages result in the clock starting on the snap in NF 3-4-3. Where do you see anything that infers that this case (an A-B-A double change of possession) should be included??

to tell you the truth, i dont see anything in rule 3-4 that supports this situation one way or the other. not one person i have talked with thinks it starts on the ready. can you lead me to the exact statement that says it start on the ready? i would appreciate it. everyone i talk with says because it is a change of possession so it starts on the snap. what can i show them to prove them wrong? this is not clearly defined in the rulebook and maybe it should be, a multiple change of possession. i dont see anything in rule 3-4-3, but i dont see it in the rules under start with the reay for play either. please clear this up for me, i dont mean to be disrespectful, i just want to do whats right.

[Edited by yankeesfan on Oct 27th, 2003 at 10:50 PM]

The reason the clock starts on the ready is that A is given a new series. The list of times when the clock starts on the snap is listed in the rules. All other times, the clock starts on the ready. It does not explicitly say the clock starts on the ready in the original play BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HAVE TO.

If the clock was meant to be stopped there, the rule would say "when either team gets a new series." The rule specifically only mentions B. If this isn't good enough for you then you'll just have to continue to be wrong with the rest of your association.

Rich is correct. When all else fails, use the rule book.


End of discussion. Let's move on.

Essentially 2 groups of folks who do not read the rule book.
1 - Newer officials because they do not have a clue where to find what they are looking for or how to understand what is written even if they find it, and
2 - Older "ROAD" officials who "know it all" and do not need to read anymore. (ROAD = Retired on Active Duty)