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Wed Oct 22, 2003, 12:25pm
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Consistency, gentlemen, consistency...that is all we coaches ask.
Right now, the count stands at 5-1 in favor of starting the clock on the ready. As a coach, I don't really care one way or the other. I just need to know how it will be enforced, so that I can coach accordingly. One thing to add to the scenario that I didn't mention before, there was under a minute of clock time remaining in a game that was 35-34. Obviously, the call went against us with the 3rd down. But even if it had been called correctly, the clock starting on the ready or the snap does matter. Cause if it starts on the ready, I have to spike the ball...if it starts on the snap, I can run a play. Yes, one call does matter in a football game. I am sorry that I don't buy into the propaganda that one play doesn't make the difference. Ask Dante Hall for the Chiefs if his punt return against the Ravens made a difference (might as well ask him if the next week against the Broncos made a difference)...ask Ahman Green if his fumble against the Chiefs made a difference...ask Callahan if his player getting tackled at the 1 yard line with time expiring made a difference. And those are examples that have happened THIS YEAR alone. Luckily, none of those involve penalties, but, yes, my friends, one play, one call, one mismatch can be the difference in a football game. We should all be accountable to do the right thing everytime. 
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Wed Oct 22, 2003, 01:33pm
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And what is really scary Tom is that Ed (and other excellent officials like him) are teaching guys around the country. I don't do Fed rules but I know from reading Ed's stuff that is pretty sharp on them. If he had told me, before I read all the other responses, that the clock started on the snap under Fed rules, I would have bought it, no question (even though it would be on the ready in our (NCAA) rules.
And Coach 2cents....1 play/call does not decide a game. What about the 40 - 50 other plays the team ran that did not result in scores due to errors by the players or bad play calls by the coaches? They bear no responsibility for the out come of the game. Everything has to be taken into totality. It is far too simplistic to just say 1 call or even a few calls cost a game when each team is running anywhere from 40 - 60 plays a game. [Edited by TXMike on Oct 22nd, 2003 at 01:36 PM]
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Wed Oct 22, 2003, 01:47pm
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TXMike,
At some point in a game, the next play LITERALLY decides the game, because it is the last play...which is what I purport was the circumstance in the NC game last year. If there is a foul, there literally is another play. If there is no foul, there literally is not another play. Therefore, that foul determined the outcome of the game. One possible outcome: no foul, Miami wins, game over, see ya next year. The other: foul, there is at least one more play. Maybe it's semantics, maybe I am just bullheaded, maybe I am ignorant, but in this instance, in that particular game, one play did decide whether the game was over, with one team winning or not.
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Wed Oct 22, 2003, 01:55pm
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TXMike,
The reason is because I can't do anything about things that happened in the past. Period. All I can do is help the players to be successful on the next play. That is all I have to work with. So as the clock runs down, each play becomes more and more critical. When we get to the last play of the game, we have to make sure all things are right by everyone -- coaches, players, officials, everyone with a vested interest in a particular game. You are right, usually this doesn't happen. But sometimes it does, as was the case described.
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Wed Oct 22, 2003, 02:07pm
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Just2cents, To say "We should all be accountable to do the right thing everytime." is insulting. First off, I believe the majority of the officials on this site do not have the luxury of instant replay. Of course we strive to make the right call everytime. But in reality, if you're working a varsity game with a 4 or 5 man crew, you only have so many eyes and vantage points to make a call from. In NCAA, the 7 man crew gains several more angle to view a play from, but you still only have a split second to decide what you have. I'm not trying to make excuse for officials, but it is reality that you are going to find mistakes in our games when you watch them on film in slow motion. And you will notice that 98% of the time the official did make the right call. That percentage I'm sure drops as the level of play decreases also. I must also say that even though last last play of the game appears to have decided the game, the 35 to 40 other plays did also. If that wasn't true, we might as well let each team run one play, announce the winner, and go have beer and pizza.
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Wed Oct 22, 2003, 02:08pm
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Here is A thought on the correct call: "1st and 10 for A at B's 23. After the box is set, wind it." That is my quick face value answer.
BUT, wait a second a few more thoughts creep into mind on this single play... you mention nothing about the status of the game clock. Did time in the quarter expire during the play? That makes a difference. ???????A throws an interception to B. Where? At the 10? At the 30? Is the bean bag there? B returns ball to B23 (gaining yardage or losing yardage?) Eyes open for those blocks in the back and clips. Then fumbles. Piling on? Or did the ball squirt out? Which direction did he fumble? Illegal forward Pass? A recovers. Where? The 30? The 23? The 10? Is the bean bag there? Is A down? or do we still have a live ball? Did B tackle him? Did he go out of bounds? Did he just take a knee? There were no penalties on the play. OR none that were called or observed? Which of the coaches WASN'T on the field for that play? Are all the guys downfield eligible? Did that hand brush across the face mask, or did the hand grab? Why is the coach asking me "Didn't you see that obvious holding?" Get the box set because we have a new series of downs. I am waving to stop the clock at the end of this play aren't I? The clock is or is not stopped like I want. Better make sure I hold the spot. Make sure to swivel the head for the dead ball fouls. Recover the beanbags. Get the ball set. Signal to the other officials the status of play. After that HALF second, a whole new crop of thoughts creep in?
__________________
God is the only One Who always gets the right call
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Wed Oct 22, 2003, 02:13pm
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Plus the wise-@ss HL commenting on the great bagging of the interception spot.
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Thu Oct 23, 2003, 06:21am
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Patton,
I didn't intend that to be insulting...I believe that everyone does try to do the best he can in every situation, and therein lies the accountability. seanireland, Are you sure you didn't miss something? And what took you so long to rule? Half second...come on...you know that we coaches need rulings quicker. (that is sarcasm for anyone that is having a hard time spotting my facetiousness) Last comment by me on this topic: I feel as if I didn't give the crew working our game Friday night their due, they did everything in their immediate power to make the situation right. 1) The coaches and the officials discussed this particular instance prior to the game, while we had the luxury of no pressure at the time for anyone. 2) The officials informed us coaches how they were going to rule on the particular play should it arise in the game. 3) The officials admitted that we had brought up some valid points about the situation that caused them to rethink the ruling and to verify with superiors how this particular play should be handled. 4) We coaches were told that once they had received the ruling from superiors, they would get back to us. 5) Yesterday, we received a call stating the ruling would be that the clock starts on the ready. In my opinion, the officials working the game Friday night did everything right.
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Thu Oct 23, 2003, 07:12am
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Coach,
I'm POSITIVE I missed something. As AndrewMcCarthy said about the bagging of the interception. That only happens if B intercepts inside the 5 and his momentum takes him into the end zone. Thanks AndrewMcCarthy. I wasn't being sarcastic. I wanted to give the officials an opportunity to see inside my head on the play. With practice, it will get to be instantaneous because the coaches, players, fans, and other officials deserve that. In the meantime, I'll keep posting and asking stupid questions because those are the ones that seem to get the smartest and wisest answers. Besides, if I don't get my stupid questions answered, then I am not learning a thing. I am sure you got your answer to your question, but so did I. That is, "bag if momentum is involved" OM Use of bean bag. Please post more coach. The official you make think about stuff may be doing YOUR game someday.
__________________
God is the only One Who always gets the right call
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Thu Oct 23, 2003, 07:53am
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Proper Use of the bean bag
It sounds as some here are stingy about using the bean bag.
I like to use it once in a while. I'd rather mark a spot with it than not catch the late hit out of bounds. Sure, the guys don't do it on TV. But they have 7 officials and another "wing" to clean up the players. We don't have that. We have a beanbag for the spot and ourselves to officiate the players. It's a communication tool, too. If I bag a loose ball, I just told my partners that I had a fumble -- it's not incomplete, the runner was not down. It's a useful tool. The other night I had an interception where the MX did not come into play. The defensive player caught the ball stumbling forward and fell with the ball just inside the endzone. His movement forward caused him to roll to the 1-2. I dropped a bag inside the endzone and signalled a touchback. Redundant? Sure. But I thought the play warranted some extra communication and I gave it. I know some of you have anal-retentive evaluators and I guess I'm lucky in that we don't have any of that here. Do what is required in your area. Rich
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Thu Oct 23, 2003, 08:38pm
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Quote:
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Thu Oct 23, 2003, 09:24pm
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Quote:
As for what to call on this particular play, this situation is what in legal profession is called a case of "first impression" in that there may not be a case that set the precedence. I stand corrected on when to start the clock because there is an NFHS case book ruling. However, without it you have to rely on what you know of the spirit and intent of the rules. If you understand the fundamentals of the rules you can justify about any ruling you make -- scary but true. When Dick Schindler wrote the revision in 1996 he sought to develop a standard to keep referees from variations in timing based upon game situations. If Coach 2cents situation had occurred in the middle of the first quarter there would not have been reason to hurry. But in the 4th quarter with a team trying to score when the ball is made ready is oh so important. One is left to wonder if Schindler was still rule book editor would be interpretation had been the same.
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