Fan Question about PI..

[ChristianHog1965]

I know the penalties are different in the NFL (spot of the foul) and NCAA (15 yards) for pass interference and I also know that in the past the NCAA had the same penalty as the NFL. My questions is why the change was made in the NCAA? It seems to me that the penalty is set up in such a way that it can greatly benefit the offending team. A qb throws a 50-yarder into the endzone to a wr who has a step on the defender, the defender then tackles the wr before the ball gets there. Offense gets the ball on the 35 and a first down. It just doesn't make sense to me to reward the team that gets flagged. What is the reasoning behind the penalty being only 15 yards and not spot of the foul?

Also, what is the accountability structure for NCAA officials if/when they have a bad game?

Just curious.

Thanks.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally posted by ChristianHog1965
What is the reasoning behind the penalty being only 15 yards and not spot of the foul?

My guess... there's less of a chance that we can assume the pass would have been completed without the interference in college or high school ball.

We've got an amateur QB passing to an amateur receiver rather than a pro to a pro.

[JasonTX]

For NCAA the penalty for Defensive Pass Interference can be a spot foul. If the foul is less than 15 yards the ball is spotted at the spot of the foul. If the foul is more than 15 then it's 15 yards from the previous spot. It is always an automatic first down. Def. Pass Interference is also excempt from being half the distance to the goal. It's always 15. Another twist to that is, suppose the ball is snapped at Team B's 15 and the foul occurs in the end zone. This time the ball will be spotted at the 2 yard line.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by ChristianHog1965
I know the penalties are different in the NFL (spot of the foul) and NCAA (15 yards) for pass interference and I also know that in the past the NCAA had the same penalty as the NFL. My questions is why the change was made in the NCAA? It seems to me that the penalty is set up in such a way that it can greatly benefit the offending team. A qb throws a 50-yarder into the endzone to a wr who has a step on the defender, the defender then tackles the wr before the ball gets there. Offense gets the ball on the 35 and a first down. It just doesn't make sense to me to reward the team that gets flagged. What is the reasoning behind the penalty being only 15 yards and not spot of the foul?

Like was said above. At the high school level, the chances of completing a pass are around or below 50%. If we apply the same logic, shouldn't the defensive team get the ball at the spot of the foul if the offense commits PI?

Plus in high school (NFHS rules) intentional PI can carry an additional 15 yard penalty. High school and college rules try to balance the rules between offense and defense. Pro rules (in my opinion) favor an offensive team.

Originally posted by ChristianHog1965
Also, what is the accountability structure for NCAA officials if/when they have a bad game?

Yes, college evaluators provide the accountability. Most college games have an evaluator present. If a guy doesn't meet the expectations for the conference, he is replaced. If an official has a bad game, it may just be a single bad game. But if there is a pattern of poor officiating, these guys will get replaced. There are a lot of other guys who would love a chance to work a college game.

Do you have questions about a call in a game (or in several games) that you would like to ask?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ChristianHog1965
Also, what is the accountability structure for NCAA officials if/when they have a bad game?

More than you or I realize. NCAA officials are graded on every single play. The penalties they call and the penalties that they do not. So if the Umpire calls something, the HL might get "downgraded" if the evaluators feel that the HL should have called it as well. They are graded on just about anything that they do on the field. And because of this scrutiny, some stay, some go each year.

Peace

[ChristianHog1965]

did not favor my team but I am not on here to admonish officials. I know their job is incredibly tough and I want no part of it.

The PI call in the NCAA has always bugged me since they went to the 15 yard penalty over spot of the foul. As far as the stat that only 50% of the passes will be caught. I assume that the 50% stat applies to all passes thrown but we all know that not all passes are catchable. I would venture to guess that a pass that gets to a receiver (catchable) is more than 50% likely to be caught. Also, since possession belongs to the offense, I don't agree with the flip-side argument of offensive PI. (imo) I just think the current rule creates a situation where the offending team can beneift greatly by committing the foul and I just don't think breaking the rules should be rewarded.

BTW, (The game and call that prompted me was a holding call against Arkansas' George Wilson on a 78-yard touchdown run by QB Matt Jones) Saturday in a 10-3 loss to Auburn. But again, I can see where the official (Larry Leatherwood) had an angle that made it look like a hold.) I don't agree with the call and it was very costly for the hogs, but it was NOT the reason Arkansas lost the game.

My question about accountability stems from the anger that bad (or just perceived bad) calls create in the fans. I think some of the hatred and animosity from fans toward officials comes from something you stated yourself. That is. "More than you or I realize..." That's the problem. Fans don't see any accountability or repurcussions for officials who make blatantly or consistently bad calls. If they could see the grades given to the officials there may be some satisfaction in the fans knowing that at least the error was admitted. Regardless of how bad or costly a call may be, the outcome of the game cannot be changed but maybe fans would begin to understand the rules and the officials themselves better if "officials" stats became a common part of a game's box score.

Just a thought.

Thanks for the responses...

[ChristianHog1965]

I attributed a quote to mikesears when it should have been to JRutledge...

Sorry about that.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by ChristianHog1965

REPLY: I just think the current rule creates a situation where the offending team can beneift greatly by committing the foul and I just don't think breaking the rules should be rewarded.

I can understand your frustration regarding the penalty that the NCAA RUles Commitee has deemed appropriate for a defensive PI call more than 15 yards downfield. It may not be the "eye-for-an-eye" penalty that you might want to see, but when the offended team gives up 15 yards and an automatic first down, it's hardly a "reward." It's a very difficult proposition trying to balance penalties with the nature of the offense. But I do understand your point.

Originally posted by ChristianHog1965

Fans don't see any accountability or repurcussions for officials who make blatantly or consistently bad calls.

REPLY: That's exactly the point. Fans rarely see, and in my opinion don't deserve to see, any repercussions for consistently inadequate officiating. All conferences that I know of keep that stuff within their walls. They may make an announcement about a highly controversial call, and they have even gone so far as to publicly announce that a crew of officials has been suspended, but they will rarely if ever single out a specific official in the public record. [Note: Of course, if you think it never happens, ask the BJ from the Giants-SF playoff game last season.] How many times have you heard a coach ream out one of his players in public for consistently screwing up his blocking assignments and say that he'll be reassigned to the scout team? Rarely, if ever. The coach will be supportive in public, but you can bet the family jewels that the player will hear about it on the practice field!

[MD Longhorn]

Not to mention that 80% (or more) of the time, the fan who's complaining about a certain call is simply wrong.

[KEFerrell]

I think it's highly unfair to publish a work record for any official, or any worker for that matter.

Even calls that are reviewed in the NFL are not seen as blown or erroneous calls by an official.

Most fans havent taken the time to read the rules, much less the mechanics on how to enable the official to be in the right place to make the call.

I can understand furstration at a call that may seem to erroneous. I remember my father once telling me he liked me better when I "was a Ole Miss Fan and not a GD football ref.." after telling him a DB hooking a WR is indeed DPI

Put yourself on the field, figuratively. If you say that you can see where from his point of view. He saw holding, I'm sure he had to defend this call to the Ref and whomever had an inside out look at it. Don't Call what you Don't See, Call what you do See.

For a little information on PI I would suggest these two links.

http://ww2.nfl.com/fans/rules/passinterference.html
http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf

7-3-8 Covers PI

[ChristianHog1965]

on the fans being right 80% of the time. Our vision is skewed by subjectivity the majority of the time. But, I do believe there are a few of us out here who somewhat understand the difficulties of being an official while having a reasonably objective view of the rules of the game and how they are applied.

BobM:
I also see your point on the IR penalty in trying to balance the crime and punishment. (Basically, I'm just mad because Arkansas had a play that had TD written all over it on a deep pass such as I described in my first post, reduced to a 15 yard gain to the 35 or so.) The hogs failed to score on the possession. Regardless, it's a tough call. Maybe a rule change that makes the punishment for PI in the EZ much more strict like the Intentional Grounding in the EZ rule that results in a safety? ( I believe that's correct)

I do respectully disagree with you on the fans having no right to know how the officials get graded. I'm not saying a public reprimand, but something like a scoresheet for the refs that get's added to the boxscore once it is completed by the evaluator. That could possibly educate the fans as to what the officials got right and what they got wrong. It would also take away from many fans (incorrect) opinions and attitudes that officials can call a game to their liking and have no accountability for their performance.

You're right. You rarely see a coach talk publicly about a player screwing up. However, I can look at the box and get a general idea of how the players performed.

The officials have a huge impact on the game through calls that are black and white and other calls that judgements. They are as much a part of the game as the players because they are there to keep rules from being broken. That's a massive responsibility, especially with 22 men running around the field at any given time. Violations will be missed and some will be called that didn't happen. It's impossible for it to be perfect and I, as a fan, realize that. Officials get villified constantly and it's usually because the fans don't understand the rules. But sometimes it's not. Sometimes the official simply blows it at a critical time and that's when fans begin to feel like an unfair advantage was given to the other team.

You know, honestly, as I write this and go back and read some of it I have come to the conclusion that I have no idea what the answer is. Maybe there's not one. I could go on and on, (and I have) about this and never get it solved.

Oh well.

Bottom line. Officials have a tough job and most of them try their best to get it right all the time. Mistakes are going to happen and fans and coaches will just have to live with them.

Thanks for the discussion,
God Bless
Cary

[JasonTX]

I do respectully disagree with you on the fans having no right to know how the officials get graded.



Football is a game that will continue to be played with or without fans. Officials, players, and coaches are not out their to put on a show for the fans. It is simply a classroom and an educational tool for making the players better in day to day life. They learn things like discipline, teamwork and the list goes on and on. These things can all be accomplished without fans. A lot of times fans disrupt the learning process by showing poor sportsmanship. My suggestion is to become a football official yourself and see the field on our side of the fence and learn the rules and you will then see how much you don't know. Respecfully, Jason

[ChristianHog1965]

I am merely bringing up topics of discussion. I have seen frustration directed towards officials both unjustified and justified and I was interested in hearing how the people that actually make the calls feel about the subject. I have not been critical or deragatory in my statements at all. Additionally, I never claimed to to know anything about actually being an official. I am a fan and I am bringing a fan's perspective to the board.

As for football being played without fans. Once again, I disagree. If myself and the other 70-thousand plus fans that attend Arkansas football games stop sending money to the foundation, stop buying tickets, stop buying concessions, then I promise you that there would be no need for an official at Razorback Stadium on Saturday afternoons because there would be no games. Fans spend billions of dollars a year to attend and support their favorite teams. It is that money that allows college football games and everything it takes to support them to take place. The same holds true for the NFL and most other major attendance sports.

I do agree about many fans showing poor sportsmanship and it is usually this vocal minority that casts a dark shadow on most reasonable fans. I also believe that the vast majority of the time the officials get it right, regardless of what fans, coaches and players might think. But, just like you rarely hear of good sportsmanship from fans, you also rarely hear fans bragging on all the correct calls an offical makes. That could be a benefit of the scoresheet . "Hey look, the refs got it right!"

I didn't come over here to pick a fight. far from it. My thought was that refs have to deal with the name-calling, hate-mail, jeers and many other personal attacks simply because of their profession. Perhaps there was a way to appease the fans and help inform them about how well (or poorly) the officials are actually doing. Instead of assuming I knew how officials felt about the subject I decided to ask.

Cary

[JasonTX]

The only problem with make the evaluations public would be more criticism against an official who could of had a better game and then the fans see him still working. I can just imagine. As others have said, if a college official doesn't perform well then his future is at risk. There are times when the fans see the game but have no complaints and they may even think the officials did a good job, but an evalutor may see it differently and give a bad grade. It's just not a good idea to make that public. We all appreciate your thoughts on making the fans understand what we do but there just isn't anyway to change the opinions of the fans. Too many times have we made calls against one team and we get harrassed for it, but then we make the exact same call for the other team and then we get all the cheers. Not many times will you get a "that's a good call" from the team or fans of the one who committed the foul. Stick around this board and continue to post questions. Ask questions about certain plays you wondered about.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by ChristianHog1965
Also, since possession belongs to the offense, I don't agree with the flip-side argument of offensive PI. (imo) I just think the current rule creates a situation where the offending team can beneift greatly by committing the foul and I just don't think breaking the rules should be rewarded.

I can see your point. I only bring it up because the NFHS handbook actually uses the arguments I presented here. The balance between offense and defense is delicate and not easily accomplished.

Originally posted by ChristianHog1965
BTW, (The game and call that prompted me was a holding call against Arkansas' George Wilson on a 78-yard touchdown run by QB Matt Jones) Saturday in a 10-3 loss to Auburn. But again, I can see where the official (Larry Leatherwood) had an angle that made it look like a hold.) I don't agree with the call and it was very costly for the hogs, but it was NOT the reason Arkansas lost the game.

I didn't see the game so I cannot comment. Maybe someone else saw the game and can offer a response.

Originally posted by ChristianHog1965
My question about accountability stems from the anger that bad (or just perceived bad) calls create in the fans. I think some of the hatred and animosity from fans toward officials comes from something you stated yourself. That is. "More than you or I realize..." That's the problem. Fans don't see any accountability or repurcussions for officials who make blatantly or consistently bad calls. If they could see the grades given to the officials there may be some satisfaction in the fans knowing that at least the error was admitted. Regardless of how bad or costly a call may be, the outcome of the game cannot be changed but maybe fans would begin to understand the rules and the officials themselves better if "officials" stats became a common part of a game's box score.

I doubt fans would care what the league says about an official's accuracy. When the league states that an official was correct, fans still complain. Look at the game between Indy and Tampa where the leaping call was made. Correct call by rule and fans STILL think it was wrong. Look at the PI call made in the BCS series last year. The call was ruled correct by the supervisor and people still think it was a poor call. In order to make it to a high level, you have to have a history of accurate calls.

I think people's view of officials is more surrounded by the fact the the officials are the administrators the laws of the game.