NFHS Penalty Announcement
 

When under the NFHS rules did they start announcing the number of the player who committed a penalty. I noticed it this past weekend during the Minnesota State Title Games. Thank you.

A while now. Subtle change in the manual, from "will not" to "may."

I always thought that particular prohibition was downright silly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Why would you ever write in the rules what someone may do? Why not just eliminate verbiage referring to any such thing?

That's not the only example of surplus verbiage. Who needs a passage describing the object of the game? The rules tell you how to keep score, tell you the greater score wins; why not just leave it to one's imagination that each team would try to win? If a team for some reason tries to lose, what's the penalty, a forfeit? :D

My understanding of the practice's origin was to advise the offending team coach, who specifically violated a rule, so that coach could take whatever personalized corrective measures to teach the player to avoid such problems in the future.

Still don't comprehend why the spectators need to know the identity of the fouling player (could be that TV and "latest technology" had something to do with it) but it's actual purpose and value, or publicly announcing identity of the perpetrator, escape me.

Announcing, and explaining, the violation makes sense as it helps spectators understand what is happening.

It changed in MN for the 2017 season... prior to 2017 they didn't want us announcing the player's number, but now they require us to announce the player's number.

Of course, it only really matters for games where the R has a field microphone. And, at least for our crew, that was 2 out of 11 games. And, of course, one of those games just happened to be the game where we had 3 separate fouls on a single punt play.

Because as we all learned in Business Law, there's a big difference between "may" and "shall".

In this instance, the Fed is handing off responsibility off to individual states to interpret how they wish.

But wouldn't that be accomplished just as well by Fed's not making any mention of such announcements?

The whole notion that not announcing the foul saves the kid from embarrassment is just idiotic.

It's all part of letting people know what happened. Was holding on a receiver, was it on a lineman, was it on a back? Hey, let's just announce the number.

And yes, TV. It's nice for them to know where to show a replay if it's a multi-camera game, which I know doesn't happen for many of us on Friday nights.

And in sports like basketball, we announce the number anyway. Why is football so special when we do not foul out the player. But when we have an Unsporting act, it is good that we let everyone know who that is we just called that penalty on.

Peace

Way back when I played you had to raise your hand if the foul was on you.

And that was the rule back before I started officiating basketball. That is no longer the case of course.

Peace

I can appreciate the benefit of letting a Coach know specifically what the nature of the USC foul was, as well as who committed it, so he/she might be in a better position to correct such damaging behavior and prevent it from reoccurring.

How THAT Coach decides to deal with the situation, is up to THAT Coach.

Why does a spectator need that information? What can he/she do with it. Perhaps a parent should know, that seems a decision better made by THAT Coach, who may understand the family dynamics a lot better.

Presuming that EVERY SINGLE UNC foul committed is a MISTAKE (by that player - no excuses, no pay back) as a lack of control and focus, what good does it do to point out THAT player's MISTAKE to a lot of strangers? What's the point?

This last post brought to you by the 1980s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

In basketball the PA announcer says the fouling player's NAME over the microphone, even for a technical foul. Yet in football it's "embarrassing" for the R to say the number? Please.

Always willing to be updated with something worthwhile, so what's the NEW modern benefit?

If the player is ejected or there is something that might result in ejection, then that should be made public. I do not see what "let the coach handle it" has anything to do with the situation. As stated in other sports it is clear when a player is ejected, why not football?

For the record most of the time, we never get a mic in the first place. So this really is not that much of a concern honestly either way.

Peace

When a player has been ejected, the situation HAS BEEN HANDLED, any subsequent "handling" by the Coach should be efforts at preventing such behavior from happening AGAIN.

If action, "that might result in ejection" actually HAPPENS, somebody should be ejected, as that penalty is reserved for egregious, or repetitive serious behaviors.

In either event, why does Joe Spectator NEED to know the details? The result unfolding should be all that is necessary to understand the type behavior exhibited.

Joe Spectator knows when a player has been given a technical foul in basketball. Joe Spectator knows when a player has been ejected in baseball and softball. Don't players get carded in soccer? Why would we not tell everyone just in football when a penalty has been given to a player or coach for that matter?

Peace

Forgive me, I forgot why I should care what baseball, softball, soccer or basketball does about disqualified players. In football Joe Spectator doesn't need to know the player's identity, it doesn't matter if Joe Spectator knows, or doesn't know the player's identity, and football players don't deserve any notoriety for being really stupid & hurting their team.

Heck, why do they need seating, a scoreboard, a hot dog vendor, or even to be allowed near the game?

They might get tired of standing, would like to know who's actually playing (corresponds with all the players wearing unique numbers), avoids having to leave their seat if they get hungry, football is a spectator sport.

Perhaps you could suggest a valid reason why a spectator needs to know the identity of a disqualified player AT THE INTERSCHOLASTIC LEVEL.

Well , just like you admit that they want to know who's playing , they also want to know who committed the foul. And the powers that be have agreed to give that information to them .

I can't believe some people are so worried about the fragile egos of high school football players that they believe something as trivial as as announcing their number would be harmful to them.

This. Exactly this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

They don't need to know that. They don't need to be there at all. The game doesn't need to be played. Football isn't a necessity.

But they may want to know, for the same reason they want to sit & be spectators, & the same reason people want to play AT THE INTERSCHOLASTIC LEVEL.

Because they do it at every other level and most sports. When a player is penalized for some unsporting act, usually it is announced publicly and usually, penalties are a result.

Basketball not only are the players to have announced to have a technical foul, there are actual actions that show a technical foul was likely given. In soccer, you give a red card when a player is ejected. In baseball or softball, play likey stops when there is an unsporting act and the player might immediately leave the contest as a result (like arguing balls and strikes) and under the right circumstances is replaced by another batter (if that is still the rule). I even believe in Volleyball there are players given cards. In hockey, there is a penalty box. So football has to be different? And we are in a much larger space where literally the announcers might not even know what took place but the signal for unsportsmanlike conduct. How many times have I given a block in the back signal only to have the announcer say "holding."

Also, I had a playoff game this where a kid from both teams was ejected for their second UNC foul with no mic. They conference assignor was asked by a coach who was ejected from the contest that they were playing the next week. Maybe if we had a mic to announce this, there would have been little confusion on the video. Because by IHSA By-Laws a player ejected must sit the next game, an announcement might have helped the confusion. And yes we had to tell the coaches, but it took longer than needed.

Peace

I'm still looking for, "a valid reason why a spectator needs to know the identity of a disqualified player AT THE INTERSCHOLASTIC LEVEL." at a football game. Why also should I care how other sports handle this question.

As for the playoff game information; the conference assignor should have known the answer to that Coach's question, or the Coach should have asked one of the game officials. Are you suggesting Referee's should also announce each rule, that explains each penalty?

"Because everyone else does it", is not usually a good answer.

In English, please.......

So you're asking why something that is not needed should be done? Are you unclear about separate existence of desires from needs? Were you under the impression that everything else about a football game, including the game itself, is a necessity?

People play & watch games because they like it, even though they don't need it. The only reason officials are there is to serve the desires of these people regarding what they like, not what they need. They don't need football, they don't need officials. However, people watching football (at any level) might like this piece of info about penalties. Why are you averse to making them happier?

Most of the football I'm used to has no specators, or hardly any. However, I recognize that there are games that do attract them. I used to like going to watch games too. There are accommodations in many places to the desires fo such spectators, as discussed upthread. Why should interscholastic football be an exception to such accommodations?

"Valid" is a value judgment and subjective. If you cannot accept what was said, then do not accept the explanations given to you. The bottom line is that the people that make the decisions decided that we announce the numbers. It really does not matter if it is valid to you or even me one way or the other. You also do not have to accept what other sports do, but so you know the NF often has rules that are similar in other sports. We know that in their process of rules and mechanics changes, these changes are reviewed by other committee members in other sports. So if basketball, for example, announces fouls and warnings to specific players, then I am sure it was hard to justify why we would not announce such unsporting act in football. And every other level of football announces penalties with numbers. ;)

I do not know that he should have known, but if he asked I have the ability to tell him. I know that assignor very well and gave the appropriate information to him. We worked a State Final together, no sweat off my back either way. I do not know the coach so why would the coach ask me? Fellow officials watch games they are not working all the time and often are asked opinions about things that happen. If a coach that I do not know contacts me about something in a game that he was not at, I probably would not respond as I have no allegiance to him/her. I know the assignor/fellow official and I told him what he wanted to know. It was not a secret. :rolleyes:

Peace

Fans don’t “need” to know who fouled at any level of football, or any sport for that matter.

I’m still waiting for ajmc to give a legitimate reason not to announce the number that doesn’t involve fragile high school egos.

Why would you think I should have, or need, a reason to not do something that we normally DON'T do, when there doesn't seem to be ANY valid reason, purpose or benefit to start doing it?

I've announced numbers since I was told it was permissible.

Better question: Why wouldn't I?

Everything in football is abnormal behavior. Bunch of people coming to a big space, running around for a while, then leaving. Things people don't normally do. All of it subject to minutely detailed procedures. Yet you want to single out this one detail as needing a reason the rest of it doesn't?

There is a valid reason, the person that as committed such act is about to be ejected if they continue. And every other sport makes these situations known. That is another reason why there are box scores with ejections on them.

But again, it does not matter what you feel is valid. I think it is valid and so does the NF, NCAA and NFL. You will eventually get over it.

I also have been doing this since we are allowed. It made no sense not to give that information.

Peace

I think you should ask yourself that same question with respect to "why WOULDN'T we do it?".

Since every other level of football announces the number, and in other sports the offender's identity is revealed, it would behoove you to ask yourself "why would we not announce the number?".

"Because it's INTERSCHOLASTIC football" has been your only argument so far. In "interscholastic" basketball we report fouls to the table which are typically then announced by the PA. In "interscholastic" baseball it's very obvious when a player has been ejected. What does "interscholastic" have anything to do with why we should/should not announce the number?

And again, I'm not one of those people that thinks we need to protect high school kids from the purported embarrassment of having their number announced. Most high schoolers, football players in particular, don't have egos that fragile.

Forgive me, but if handled properly, the player being disqualified, should well be aware of that fact, I don't deal with box scores nor see where announcing would impact them either way, leaving "every other sport makes these situations known", plus I can't find anywhere that "NF validates announcing disqualifications".

I may be somewhat biased about, "every other sport makes these situations known" because try as I might, long ago despite repeatedly trying that excuse, "all the other guys were doing it' I was never able to get that by my old man.

Guess, we'll just have to agree, to disagree.

Again you keep talking about reasoning. There is reasoning when a sport would be the only one that would do something. And if that is not good enough for you, then my point again is clearly no one in powers cares what your position is on this. ;)

It is funny you focus on the "every other sport" aspect of my comments, but not what other levels within the same sport do. AGain you can agree to disagree, but stop trying to make this about your personal preference. Because you have not given a reason why it is bad to announce bad behavior that is penalized by kids when in other situations they would be called out for their behavior. Heck, a kid in school that is suspended would not be a secret. And all we are announcing is the penalty and the result, we are not giving them an explanation about the specifics in most cases or even talking about them in a negative way. We have a foul, it is penalized and we are telling them and giving at best the number that was penalized which again could result in ejection or be the reason the next similar action ejects them from the game.

Peace

Because presumably if it were intramural, that'd be fine w him.

Actually, JR, I agree with your conclusion. This particular horse is long past dead and I see no value in continuing to beat the corpse. I really don't know who "those in power" are, or what they may "care", but NFHS rules, and mechanics, seem optional at best.

So, we'll simply have to agree to disagree, unless of course, you can come up with additional reasoning besides, "every other (sport, level) does it".

Can you come up with any additional reasoning other than "it's interscholastic football" or "we've never done it that way"?

Powers that be are the NF or the NCAA and NFL that all now allow or even require for the number to be announced when a foul is committed. The NF was the last one to prohibit such information and they have IMO rightfully changed their minds and got with the newer age. And since they have allowed this to take place from the NF level, my state, as well as many others, have agreed that such a change was good. I worked a couple of State Finals in Illinois and it was often hard to determine who was the foul on when we clearly had TV showing the game. It made no sense to announce the number.

Again, you only came up with an argument that was based on as stated "egos" as if we everyone is not trying to figure out who might have committed an infraction. If you are not aware, many things we do are based on other levels. Many rules changes are based on what other levels do. And I just took a NF survey where many rules suggestions or comments about the new rules were being asked about what the other levels are doing. So it seems that someone in the NF cares what I stated or they would not have asked in their survey about those issues.

Peace

Kinda like 2-hand reporting in NFHS basketball. Was it "imperative" that it was implemented? No, but the reality was that every other level was requiring it and FED was lagging behind for no reason. The best argument opponents could come up with was "we don't need to be like college officials." Sorry, but you're going to have to do better than that.

Somewhere along a long line, I learned "You can't prove a negative". If the best you've got is, "Because they do it at higher levels" that's the best you've got and it will have to do.

I've simply been asking is their any specific reason, other than "everyone else does it" to suggest that there is some specific reason, purpose or benefit derived, or expected from identifying a player who has been disqualified.

If so fine, if not why bother? I'm not advocating a change, but if a change is recommended, I'd like to be able to understand, and if necessary, explain why. ("Because other levels do it", seems a little weak)

I think that is a little different argument and situation. Two-hand reporting was not essential to the game or mechanics. It is a style more than informational. At least in basketball, we have an overall problem in the way we report, so that often did not translate the way it will at the higher levels. We do it now, but I do not think it was some drastic advancement. Giving a number of a player that might actually be ejected from the game is very important of a chance.

Peace

Part of the problem is you are really not asking the right people. None of us here made the change. We might agree with the change but we did not actually make the decision. Maybe you should send an email to the committee or a committee member that has the insight.

Peace

Why would higher levels change an accepted practice in the first place? Don't you think, with their abundant resources, that they have made a full study of the proposed change?

The absolute worst rationale that a NFHS rule committee should EVER use is "We just don't want to be like the NCAA / (pro league)."

And yet, of late, I suspect them of thinking like just that. For instance, when they adopt a provision that probably has the same effect as the other bodies have, only written in such a way as to make it harder to administer or understand, or that has untoward side effects. Like they can't admit the other bodies had a good idea, so they have to put their own twist in the wording.

There used to be a liaison committee to foster Fed-NCAA cooperation on football rules. Now it's "NIH".

Have you considered that NFHS rules govern a game involving serious competitive physical contact, complicated tactical interactions and the maturity to prioritize group over personal objectives for players between the formative ages of 8 and 17-19

Whereas NCAA rules govern the same type of interwoven challenges between young men (upper teens-mid/late 20s) entering the next level of human development, the majority of whom have likely been exposed to, trained and experienced the game, to some extent, having progressed through that initial stage and are exposed to a radically larger venue, with totally different responsibilities and objectives .

Why are you surprised that there would be applied incremental adjustments created for the considerably different physical conditions, mental development, experience and maturation of these participants ?

Climbing to the next level in the exceedingly steep physical, skill and mental focus of the Football pyramid, which includes an entirely different objective and reward and responsibility formula and benefit, played by fully grown men at the apex of physical development creates even wider, and different priorities.

Why would you even consider one absolute standard could properly service such dispirit environments equally ?

I'm not surprised by any of these things. What vexes me is that in recent years Fed in football has frequently adopted rules language that attempted to achieve the same effect as recent changes by NCAA, but put it in ways that make them harder to administer or do strange things. What I'm thinking about is the rules governing the left-right formation or motion of players on the team making a free kick, and also the technique of such a kick. NCAA had addressed those problems fairly simply and equitably, but Fed rather than adopting those exact provisions made in one case language that makes the officials' job hard for no good reason (watching the motion of players left and right relative to the kicker, rather than just referencing the spot of the ball, as they approach the free kick line) and in the other case kills play inequitably.

The substance of the rules should take into acc't the desires of the players at the level they'll play the game. The style in which the rules are written should reflect those desiderata too. Originality is not a virtue here. All the major codes are based on the wording of a single code adopted long ago; it's not like copyright is in play! You write the rules differently to the extent you want a different effect, not to the extent you want your rules committee to seem kewl & creative.

Texas went to announcing numbers several years before the NFHS allowed it. Somehow the world did not end, even in the state where football is the second religion here.

Let's see:

In soccer, cards are show directly to the player committing the offense.

In basketball and lacrosse the numbers of the violator are reported to the table.

In baseball, we point directly at the player that has committed obstruction/interference.

But football players are different....right.

What does this have to do with announcing the number?

Oh, you must think we need to protect these kids from some perceived embarrassment. If I had a football playing son that got embarrassed when his number was announced, I’d tell him to get over it and stop fouling.

Aside from all the dodging and dancing; the original question is still unanswered, "Is there a relevant or logical reason (necessity, purpose, objective, benefit) for the practice of identifying the player who has committed a foul (or been disqualified) to the spectators watching the game.

The validity of identifying the player to HIS coaching staff and/or HIS School Administrative staff when necessary, has been established.

As for correcting your son, doing so personally would be an appropriate action for you, as a parent, to take. I hope you might consider doing so personally (one to one) rather than in front of your entire neighborhood (or the crowd observing your son's game). It's likely a private discussion would have more lasting value, just a suggestion.

The question has been answered: there is no reason not to announce the fouling player's number. That information is being given to the R along with all the other information, so why withhold it? By your logic we might as well not announce the foul either; as long as both coaches know what the foul was, who cares if the fans know?

The NFHS thankfully realized that there was no reason to restrict this information.

Yes. Fans have expressed a desire to know, and the relevant authorities have weighed the pros and cons and decided that this is a reasonable and necessary request. Asked and answered.

And, by weighing the stated desires of spectators and agreeing to meet those desires, the relevant authorities have equally established the validity of announcements. Asked and answered.

This is conflating taking corrective and potentially punitive action with the mere act of identifying a foul. You make a very good suggestion - it's just wholly irrelevant to the question at hand.

You continually ask for someone to say why this is necessary, when multiple people have said exactly that. It is plainly obvious that you simply disagree with the result and are masking that disagreement by falsely saying that no one has provided justification. When in reality, since relevant authorities have decided that this is useful information for spectators, I submit the burden of proof is on *you*. Why ISN'T this acceptable or wise to do so? Why would it NOT be relevant?

I await your answer - hopefully in the form of a statement with reasons addressing those points rather than simply more questions of the same variety, over and over and over again.

I'll try my best. In other words, Scrounge, YOU don't have an answer. Which is fine, but shouting a stupid answer doesn't make it any smarter. "Because relevant authorities said so" isn't any more instructional than, "Because everyone else is doing so", but if that's all YOU can come up with, that's all you've got.

I didn't ask IF, or suggest THAT it wasn't allowable, I asked if there was any rational reason WHY it was changed to allowable. I've indicated why I think it shouldn't have been changed.

I've looked carefully at the NFHS (2016-2017) Game Official's Manual
instructions for "Administering Penalties" for both 4-Man Pg 73 & 74 (Referee) and 5-Man Pg 49 & 50 (Referee) and find NOTHING providing ANYTHING about announcements to ANYBODY, so I'm not really sure which "relevant authorities" you are referring to.

I Understand, and accept, that what you may do locally is decided locally and have no issue with that, I simply asked if there was a logical reason for doing so. Thus far I've yet to hear or read one.

Not only were you given several answers to why you were told how things work with the NF, you were given several reasonable answers as to why this was done. Now if you choose to not accept those answers, than that is on you. I asked you to also ask those on the NF Committee and maybe they would give you more information. But you have been given direct answers to why from someone in a better position that was likely in those conversations on the committee.

Peace

"In a fight between you and the world, bet on the world."

Solid, good advice, usually worth seriously considering. However, I'm not convinced it applies as well to a small slice of "the world" who may be convinced they speak for everyone else in "the world".

Perhaps someday, someone, will come up with an answer more detailed than, "because I (we) said so".

Perhaps you might "get it" and stop asking people here (who have already answered the question BTW).

Peace

Here's the answer- Because they are the authority and they wanted to. The why doesn't matter. Much like when you were a child, "because I said so" will have to suffice.

In the other thread, you even agree.

I'm having flashbacks to the "is touching" fiasco of 2007-2009.