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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 08, 2016, 04:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitehat View Post
Robert, I don't understand your question...what I am saying is on any spot foul there is a little wiggle room as to where the flag actually falls. What we would not want to happen is if technically its 5.0 yards exactly that still leaves the ball at or beyond the line to gain, then we don't want an umpire to step off "5 yards and 2 inches" and the ball goes over to B. or the other way around.
Why blame him, when the person who indicated the spot of the foul was off by 4 inches?

Are you afraid that someone on the bench, accepting the spot of the foul as correct, has surveyor's tools and can see the U paced off 2" too much?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 08, 2016, 06:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
Why blame him, when the person who indicated the spot of the foul was off by 4 inches?

Are you afraid that someone on the bench, accepting the spot of the foul as correct, has surveyor's tools and can see the U paced off 2" too much?
Robert, not blaming anyone, nor afraid...just offering some suggestions as to how we might avoid unnecessary problems arising when we engage in that imperfect and imprecise art of measuring and foul spotting. We just do the best we can and go with it.

Regarding when the clock starts: 3.4.3h and 3.4.6 should be considered. "When a team attempts to conserve time illegally, the R shall order the clock stopped or started." Case book 3.4.6 Situation A allows for an illegal forward incomplete pass to be started on the RFP.

Last edited by whitehat; Tue Nov 08, 2016 at 06:10pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 08, 2016, 08:07pm
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IFP is considered a running play (as defined by 10-3-1, as opposed to a loose-ball play). That the play ended when the IFP hit the ground doesn't change that designation.

The basic spot for a running play is the "End of the Run (with the exception of an ABO situation) NFHS 3-4-3 determines when the clock starts with a snap, which does not include when a team gains a (continuous) first down (which is what this question is ALL ABOUT).

As suggested, when the succeeding spot left "A" behind the LTG, the "loss of down' provision of IFP would end the series for "A", starting a new series for "B" for which (according to 3-4-3) begins with a snap. Since , in this example, "A" earned a "continuous" new series, the clock starts on the RFP.

NFHS: 3-4-6 is simply not a relevant factor, in this scenario.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 08, 2016, 09:49pm
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
NFHS 3-4-3 determines when the clock starts with a snap, which does not include when a team gains a (continuous) first down (which is what this question is ALL ABOUT).
No, but it does include when there's an incomplete pass. The first down's occurrence doesn't negate the incomplete pass's occurrence. In fact, 3-4-2 says the provisions of 3-4-3 supersede it: "for any reason other than specified in rule 3-4-3". So the only way I see the clock starting on the RFP if team A retains the ball is 3-4-6.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 09, 2016, 11:27am
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Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
I don't see any mention in Fed 10-3-1 of anything about timing. Was there a recent inclusion of such a provision?
Wasn't that your original question? (I'm interested in the clock status. If team A winds up with first down, and a stopped clock (with a lot of time taken for administration before the RFP, even w/o the possibly tricky measurement) for the incompletion, it seems they've gained a good deal for their illegal forward pass. Consider that the passer was well beyond the neutral zone when he let fly; seems like a deliberate attempt to conserve time. Would you invoke 3-4-6 and start the clock on the RFP? Seems the least you could do in the situation).

Either "A" made the 1st down, clock starts on the ready, or they didn't and "B" then starts a new series, clock starts on the snap.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 09, 2016, 12:45pm
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We know that from 3-4-3e that an incomplete illegal forward pass would result in the clock being started at the snap.

In this case though I think an argument can be made for starting the clock on the ready via 3-4-6 considering the situation.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 09, 2016, 12:55pm
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Case book 3.4.6 Situation A allows for an incomplete illegal forward pass to be started on the RFP.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2016, 10:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
Wasn't that your original question?
Quote:
(I'm interested in the clock status. If team A winds up with first down, and a stopped clock (with a lot of time taken for administration before the RFP, even w/o the possibly tricky measurement) for the incompletion, it seems they've gained a good deal for their illegal forward pass. Consider that the passer was well beyond the neutral zone when he let fly; seems like a deliberate attempt to conserve time. Would you invoke 3-4-6 and start the clock on the RFP? Seems the least you could do in the situation).
Either "A" made the 1st down, clock starts on the ready,
Because of which timing provision? 3-4-6 or something else?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2016, 02:34pm
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post

Either "A" made the 1st down, clock starts on the ready
That is not correct per the rule I cited earlier unless the Referee decides to invoke 3-4-6 and wind it on the ready.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 11, 2016, 02:42pm
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Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
That is not correct per the rule I cited earlier unless the Referee decides to invoke 3-4-6 and wind it on the ready.
After re-reading 3-4-3-e (more carefully), I'd agree with you. Thanks for pointing that out.
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