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-   -   Live ball ejections for fighting. (https://forum.officiating.com/football/101774-live-ball-ejections-fighting.html)

Eww67 Wed Oct 26, 2016 08:31pm

Live ball ejections for fighting.
 
Team A faces 3rd and 14 at there 32 they attempt a screen pass which is incomplete. A DT and QB begin tussling each player throwing punches. Both players were given personnel fouls and ejected. The 15 yard penalty was enforced against the defense and a first down given to the 47. Then the 15 yards vs the offense was marked off. Final outcome offense 1st and 10 at the 32. Was this correct?

jblowery Wed Oct 26, 2016 09:25pm

I'll take a stab. This doesn't seem right to me. I think live ball fouls would off-set leaving you with 3rd and 14 again. Dead ball fouls would also cancel each other out leaving you with 4th and 14. Enforce in the order that they occur but the chains aren't technically re-set until the ready for play.

OKREF Wed Oct 26, 2016 09:30pm

I have a hard time envisioning this as a live ball foul. If the QB is involved, it would almost assuredly be after the incomplete pass, which would make it a dead ball. But if they were live ball, I would agree the above. Either replay 3rd down for live ball fouls, or its 4th down if they were dead ball fouls.

Matt Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:16pm

Maybe there was a live-ball foul on B and a dead-ball foul on A?

MD Longhorn Thu Oct 27, 2016 09:37am

Matt's guess is the only possible answer that would have resulted in what the officials did.

If these were truly live ball fouls (I find that very hard to believe), it's 3rd down and 14. If these were dead ball fouls (much more likely), it's 4th and 14.

Welpe Thu Oct 27, 2016 09:40am

If they were both live ball fouls or both dead ball fouls then they should have offset.

MTUMP Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 992437)
If they were both live ball fouls or both dead ball fouls then they should have offset.

Both players still ejected though....

Welpe Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:24pm

Absolutely.

HLin NC Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:41pm

Assuming we are talking Fed on this one, 10-2-5 was changed last year to offset if both fouls occurred before the next live ball.

Welpe Thu Oct 27, 2016 03:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 992454)
Assuming we are talking Fed on this one, 10-2-5 was changed last year to offset if both fouls occurred before the next live ball.

Hate to be pedantic but they offset if both fouls occur before penalty administration is completed.

BoomerSooner Thu Oct 27, 2016 04:42pm

Is it possible that the penalty against B was for roughing the passer (and thus a live ball foul) followed by a dead ball foul against A for retaliating?

HLin NC Thu Oct 27, 2016 07:05pm

Quote:

Hate to be pedantic but they offset if both fouls occur before penalty administration is completed
Just using the verbiage from last year's Fed PPT.

HLin NC Thu Oct 27, 2016 07:07pm

Does't explain the double ejections unless the RTP was deemed flagrant, which I've never seen.

Robert Goodman Thu Oct 27, 2016 08:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 992489)
Does't explain the double ejections unless the RTP was deemed flagrant, which I've never seen.

But it wouldn't be hard, if the B player went flying in with a fist, or maybe a forearm to the chops, and the passer responded in kind.

chapmaja Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:22pm

Penalty a couple weeks ago
 
We had this happen in a local game I was at a couple weeks ago.

Team A has the B 4th and 11at about midfield.

Team A is penalized for an illegal formation, but the punter drops the snap and has to fall on the ball. After he is clearly down, a player for Team B dives in and spears the punter.

The officials marked off both penalties but it remained 4th down and 1 yard to go. (The team went for it and made it on 4th and 1).

This is what I thought the penalty mark off should have been. Illegal formation, defense declines the penalty, then after the play that ended the Team A possession, Team B is penalized for the flagrant contact foul. The penalty would be 15 yards from where the play ended and team B would have a first and 10.

It did not matter in the game as it was a 28 point game (Team A winning), at the time anyway.


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