Spotting the ball after 4th down

[Rich]

Ease of administration. We start every new series on a yardline with few exceptions, therefore anything touching the yardline 10 yards downfield is a first down.

The right NFHS rulebook answer is that the foremost point of the ball becomes the backmost point of the ball on a COP.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by Rich

Ease of administration. We start every new series on a yardline with few exceptions, therefore anything touching the yardline 10 yards downfield is a first down.

The right NFHS rulebook answer is that the foremost point of the ball becomes the backmost point of the ball on a COP.

This.

I'm putting the ball on the closest yard line after a COP after a failure to reach the line-to-gain on 4th down unless a) we're inside the 10 or b) we had to measure to see if the line-to-gain was reached.

I've also been known to move the ball to the opposite side of the yard line after a failed 4th down play (if the previous spot was touching the back of the 30-yard-line going in, we're starting the next series on the back on the 30-yard-line going out).

The book (both FED and NCAA) says not to do this, but it's an accepted practice for both levels (check local listings, of course). NFL officials do this all the time too.

[BoomerSooner]

Every crew I've worked on does the same, but I've often wondered if the following logic plays out as well as the logic we use to spot as we currently do. I'm not proposing we all change how we do things, but would love to get some thoughts.

Currently the logic is that if we spot the ball with the foremost point of the ball touching a yard line, the line to gain will be achieved as long as the ball is touching that yard line, but why couldn't this entire idea be flipped. For example, the ball is spotted with the foremost tip touching the edge of the A's side of the 40 yard line for a new series. We know if the ball touches the 30 yard line, A has made the line to gain. A throws 4 incomplete passes and after the CoP, the ball is spotted at the exact same spot. On 1st down, B runs for ~10 yards and the ball is spotted such that it is laying across the 50 yard line. Assuming the ball maintains the same length tip to tip, shouldn't we know that B has not made the line to gain? On 2nd down, B runs the ball and it is spotted such that there is an inch of space between the back point of the ball and the 50 yard line. At this point we know the line to gain has been made, don't we?

Again, I'm not proposing we all start a movement to change the way we've all administered this. Just asking from a logical/mathematical perspective, does this hold up?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

This.

I'm putting the ball on the closest yard line after a COP after a failure to reach the line-to-gain on 4th down unless a) we're inside the 10 or b) we had to measure to see if the line-to-gain was reached.

I've also been known to move the ball to the opposite side of the yard line after a failed 4th down play (if the previous spot was touching the back of the 30-yard-line going in, we're starting the next series on the back on the 30-yard-line going out).

The book (both FED and NCAA) says not to do this, but it's an accepted practice for both levels (check local listings, of course). NFL officials do this all the time too.

We had this happen this weekend. Ball was on the 30 going in. 4th down pass incomplete. I happened to catch the other ball and spotted it so we were on the 30 going out.

Here's another radical thought: On a real flyer of a punt out of bounds, we always start on a 5-yard line (on fields with no yard marks in the middle). Why? It's just an educated guess anyway and we'll be no more than (at most) 2.5 yards off.

I've had the chains out a total of 2 times this year and both times were due to errors by the line judge on the game. Done right, the chains should stay on the sideline most of the time, where they belong.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

This.

I'm putting the ball on the closest yard line after a COP after a failure to reach the line-to-gain on 4th down unless a) we're inside the 10 or b) we had to measure to see if the line-to-gain was reached.

I've also been known to move the ball to the opposite side of the yard line after a failed 4th down play (if the previous spot was touching the back of the 30-yard-line going in, we're starting the next series on the back on the 30-yard-line going out).

The book (both FED and NCAA) says not to do this, but it's an accepted practice for both levels (check local listings, of course). NFL officials do this all the time too.

We were instructed to do this in the State finals game last year....and we have since kept up the practice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but NCAA & NFL does the same...(?)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Canned Heat

We were instructed to do this in the State finals game last year....and we have since kept up the practice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but NCAA & NFL does the same...(?)

Of course they do.

The NCAA it's part of the manual to start most series on a yard line. There are exceptions, but mainly they prove the rule.

I can tell (pretty much) immediately how a crew works just by how the ball is spotted after a change of possession.

One thing I don't do anymore either as an R -- I don't help much on punts flying out of bounds. I have to stay with the punter to watch for roughing/running into -- and by the time I can turn, the ball's already long out of bounds. But since it's expected I'll turn and put my hand up and my BJ or wing will slow near a 5 yard line and that's my signal to drop my hand.

Another key thing -- my LJ is the de facto determiner whether the LTG has been reached or not. He decides if it's a first down or short and the only time we're measuring is when he tells me we need to measure. I'm not running up to the ball to look and then running back 15 yds behind the LOS to blow in the RFP. I stay 15 deep and we keep the pace moving. The two times we measured this year? We had a sub working who wouldn't communicate with me well enough.

[MD Longhorn]

What's RIGHT is leave the ball where it was, and move the chains the length of the football.

What we all DO, however ... well, that's something completely different.

If you're asking what the rule is ... don't move the ball.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What's RIGHT is leave the ball where it was, and move the chains the length of the football.

What we all DO, however ... well, that's something completely different.

If you're asking what the rule is ... don't move the ball.

What's right is what we're told/expected to do in our local areas.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich

What's right is what we're told/expected to do in our local areas.

Exactly this.

But by the way he worded the question, I wondered if he was really wondering what was "technically" correct, even though not one person in the country does it that way.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What's RIGHT is leave the ball where it was, and move the chains the length of the football.

What we all DO, however ... well, that's something completely different.

If you're asking what the rule is ... don't move the ball.

I asked Brice Durbin this one when I visited him at Fed HQ in Kansas City in 1980:

3rd down run ends with the ball carried long axis parallel to and near A's goal line. When the ball is spotted, long axis parallel to the sidelines, its hindmost point is in A's end zone. 4th down, team A throws an incomplete pass. Spot the ball for the other team where?

He replied that that's why they tell officials seeing the ball dead near the goal line to put it far enough from the goal line so it doesn't have to be spotted with its tail in the end zone..

Not a problem in Canadian football, BTW.

[jblowery]

But isn't it a safety for Team B if Team A is tackled with part of the ball in the endzone?