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Doesn't that leave you open to:

Sub enters the field and the huddle breaks immediately. Three receivers go to the opponent's side of the field, as one goes toward his own side of the field. Defender is lining up opposite him, jogging with him in expectation that this player will stop, and the player just continues right off the field, leaving the defender hopelessly out of position.

I realize from other posts that there's an NF rules against intentional deception, but what if it's not intentional - it still leaves the defender at an unfair disadvantage, so should be against the rules. Is there some other NF clause that disallows such actions if there's no intent to deceive?

Quote:

Originally posted by mbcrowder
Doesn't that leave you open to:

Sub enters the field and the huddle breaks immediately. Three receivers go to the opponent's side of the field, as one goes toward his own side of the field. Defender is lining up opposite him, jogging with him in expectation that this player will stop, and the player just continues right off the field, leaving the defender hopelessly out of position.

I realize from other posts that there's an NF rules against intentional deception, but what if it's not intentional - it still leaves the defender at an unfair disadvantage, so should be against the rules. Is there some other NF clause that disallows such actions if there's no intent to deceive?

9-6-4c implies that it must be an intentional act for such a substitution to qualify as IP. That being said, I think it will have to be a judgement call on the official's part. One thing I would look at is how much time lapsed between the replaced player's exit and the snap. If it is a very short time, I would be inclined to rule this a foul. If there is a longer waiting period, such that B is given some time to recover, I would rule it legal. It difficult to rule on this without seeing a specific situation.

Re: Re: Re: Legal.

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Hickland
I would rule B11 as a replaced player creating a player vacancy once B11 crossed the sideline. A replaced player cannot become a substitute durng the same dead ball period.

I have to disagree with you, Ed. Where does it say a player becomes a replaced player when he creates a vacancy? A replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field. A player is also replaced when the entering substitute becomes a player. I don't think the rules back you up.

A player is one of the 11 on a team. Rule 3-7-4 states...During the same dead-ball interval, no substitute shall become a player and then withdraw and no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute unless a penalty is accepted, a dead-ball foul occurs, there is a charged time-out or the period ends.

By implication, when a player withdraws he creates a player vacancy. That vacancy can only be filled by a substitute and according to 3-7-4 the now replaced player cannot become a substitute unless one of the caveats occurs.

Also, the only way to create a player vacancy is by the withdrawl of a player.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Legal.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Hickland
I would rule B11 as a replaced player creating a player vacancy once B11 crossed the sideline. A replaced player cannot become a substitute durng the same dead ball period.

I have to disagree with you, Ed. Where does it say a player becomes a replaced player when he creates a vacancy? A replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field. A player is also replaced when the entering substitute becomes a player. I don't think the rules back you up.

A player is one of the 11 on a team. Rule 3-7-4 states...During the same dead-ball interval, no substitute shall become a player and then withdraw and no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute unless a penalty is accepted, a dead-ball foul occurs, there is a charged time-out or the period ends.

By implication, when a player withdraws he creates a player vacancy. That vacancy can only be filled by a substitute and according to 3-7-4 the now replaced player cannot become a substitute unless one of the caveats occurs.

Also, the only way to create a player vacancy is by the withdrawl of a player.

In your orignal statement, you said that this player becomes a replaced player when he creates a vacancy. That's not true. Nothing in 2-30-12 states that.

If a player was never substituted for, then he never became a replaced player. If he was never replaced, he never became a subsitute.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Legal.

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Hickland
I would rule B11 as a replaced player creating a player vacancy once B11 crossed the sideline. A replaced player cannot become a substitute durng the same dead ball period.

I have to disagree with you, Ed. Where does it say a player becomes a replaced player when he creates a vacancy? A replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field. A player is also replaced when the entering substitute becomes a player. I don't think the rules back you up.

A player is one of the 11 on a team. Rule 3-7-4 states...During the same dead-ball interval, no substitute shall become a player and then withdraw and no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute unless a penalty is accepted, a dead-ball foul occurs, there is a charged time-out or the period ends.

By implication, when a player withdraws he creates a player vacancy. That vacancy can only be filled by a substitute and according to 3-7-4 the now replaced player cannot become a substitute unless one of the caveats occurs.

Also, the only way to create a player vacancy is by the withdrawl of a player.

In your orignal statement, you said that this player becomes a replaced player when he creates a vacancy. That's not true. Nothing in 2-30-12 states that.

If a player was never substituted for, then he never became a replaced player. If he was never replaced, he never became a subsitute.

My ruling is an interpretation of the rules. The logic is quite circular. A player must be on the field. If a player leaves or withdraws during a dead ball interval, he cannot return. He also cannot be a player since he is not on the field, nor can he be a substitute since he is forbidden, by rule. His status for the entire dead ball interval is replaced player. It will change once the down occurs or any of the caveats in 3-7-4 occurs from replaced player to substitute. Then he can re-enter.

If a player withdraws, that is, leaves the field, and returns, he is then subject to illegal participation (9-6-4c) for pretending to be a substitute.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Legal.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Hickland
My ruling is an interpretation of the rules. The logic is quite circular. A player must be on the field. If a player leaves or withdraws during a dead ball interval, he cannot return. He also cannot be a player since he is not on the field, nor can he be a substitute since he is forbidden, by rule. His status for the entire dead ball interval is replaced player. It will change once the down occurs or any of the caveats in 3-7-4 occurs from replaced player to substitute. Then he can re-enter.

If a player withdraws, that is, leaves the field, and returns, he is then subject to illegal participation (9-6-4c) for pretending to be a substitute.

Ed, I'm playing devil's advocate to some extent. Quite honestly, I think there's validity to both arguments. I guess we just need a good old fashioned case play to help us with this one.

Thanks for the discussion. :)

And here's the good old fashioned case play!

SITUATION 4: B11 mistakenly believes he is his teams 12th player and leaves the field before the snap (a) on his opponents sideline, or (b) on his sideline and enters his team box. B11 then discovers his error and returns to field on his teams side of the neutral zone before the snap.

RULING: Legal in both (a) and (b). B11 is a player, not a replaced player nor a substitute. If done intentionally to gain an advantage, it is an unsportsmanlike conduct foul. If B11 returns to the field after the snap in either (a) or (b), it is a live-ball foul for illegal participation. (3-7-3; 9-5-1f; 9-6-2)