1/10 @ A-20. B11 thinks he is the 12th man on the field and crosses the sideline to go off the field.

As TEAM A, comes to the line, he realizes he WAS the 11th player and wants to return to the field. Is he allowed to return (provided he gets on before the snap)?

3-7-4: "During the same dead ball interval...no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute." The question is, did that individual ever stop being a player? I would say no: "A player continues to be a player until a substitute enters the field and indicates to the player he is replaced, or when the substitute otherwise becomes a player (2-30-1)." Based on this I would say he never quit being a player and therefore did not become a substitute, so what he did was legal. Any comments?

This is my thinking, but I'm looking for comments too.

Legal.
 

B11 remained a player during the dead-ball period. It would have been a penalty if B11 was replaced by another player and then he re-entered the field as a substitute during the same dead-ball period.

Read rule 2-30-1 and rule 3-7-4 and case play 3.7.2.

I agree with the previous responses. Now, could this be considered encroachment since he was on his side of the ball then went to the opponents and then back to his own? That's of course if the ball was ready for play and the center has touched the ball.

This substitution example is one I see at least two or three times a year at the NF level. Its one of those NCAA/NF differences so it had messed me up once.

NCAA: once you leave, you are out until you can be legally be substituted back in.

NF: you can return unless another sub has already entered for you.


regarding encroachment... I would say yes that could be a valid foul to call on this player since he is not a sub at this point. Tough call, but a correct one.

Re: Legal.
 

I would rule B11 as a replaced player creating a player vacancy once B11 crossed the sideline. A replaced player cannot become a substitute durng the same dead ball period.

That said, technically, a substitution infraction has occurred according to NFHS Rules. Strict enforcement of this rule has to be classified as overly officious. Use preventative officiating to count players and monitor player movement.

Re: Re: Legal.
 

A replaced player is "one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field. A player is also replaced when the entering substitute becomes a player (2-30-12)." Based on this definition, I would say the the player from the original question never became a replaced player since he was never notified by a sub that he is to leave (i.e. leaving the field does not in and of itself turn a "player" into a "replaced player"). Therefore, I still believe this is not a foul.

Since I consider him to have never quit being a player, then, yes, after the RFP and after the snapper puts his hand(s) on the ball, he has encroached if he is on the wrong side of or in the NZ(7-1-6). As already mentioned, it is a tough call, but I suppose that is the price he pays for leaving the field when he shouldn't have.

Re: Re: Legal.
 

I have to disagree with you, Ed. Where does it say a player becomes a replaced player when he creates a vacancy? A replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field. A player is also replaced when the entering substitute becomes a player. I don't think the rules back you up.

I think that this whole discussion comes down to the word "withdraw". If the NF were to give us the definition of that word or use different wording then we would all be sure about this one. Obviously there are two sides to this and there should never be a situation in trying to apply simple rules such as substitution that 50% are on each side of the question. I agree that this 11 player never stopped being a player as he was not substituted for. However I would say that he "withdrew" from the field. The thing is he didn't return as a substitute because he can't replace himself. 3-7-4

I was always under the impression from my playing days that a player couldn't leave the field between plays and come back on. That was just how my coach applied the rules.

We all know that there are 11 players for each team at all times. We also know that only 11 players are allowed in the huddle. How often do you have 20 players in a huddle at the sideline after a try or during a timeout? Those are fouls too. I wouldn't call them but they are fouls.

Actually there is no rule that forbids 11 in the huddle (but that is another story all together). As for 20 players during a conference, coaches around here are pretty good about this one and if they have too many, we let them know and they remove players so they only have 11.

NCAA 3-5-2c: A player who is replaced must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A departing player who leaves the huddle or his position within three seconds, after a substitute becomes a player, is considered to have left immediately. Team A may not break it's huddle with 12 or more players.

This would (in NCAA) mean to me that you cannot have more than 11 in the huddle except for the 3 second interval between a substitute entering it and the replaced player leaving it.

Not sure if they have something similar in NF.

True there is no rule that forbids 11 players in the huddle as that is the maximum. I never said that.
2-30-1 A player is one of the 22 team members who is designated to start either half of the game or who subsequently replaces another player. A player continues to be a player until a substitute enters the field and indicates to the player that he is replaced, or when the substitute otherwise becomes a player.
3-7-2 Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace players. Replaced players shall leave the field immediately.
3.7.2 SITUATION B: Substitutes A12 and B12 properly enter the game between downs. The replaced player of A remains in the team huddle while the replaced B player leaves the field immediately. RULING: In this situation, A is charged with a 5-yard dead-ball foul for an illegal substitution because the replaced player of A did not leave as required.

NOthing this complex in the NF rules for subs. It just states the the replaced player must leave the field immediately. Sounds like the NCAA rules gives more informaiton as to what they consider immediately. There is no penalty for breaking the huddle with 12 in NFHS unless one of those 12 doesn't leave immediately.

Doesn't that leave you open to:

Sub enters the field and the huddle breaks immediately. Three receivers go to the opponent's side of the field, as one goes toward his own side of the field. Defender is lining up opposite him, jogging with him in expectation that this player will stop, and the player just continues right off the field, leaving the defender hopelessly out of position.

I realize from other posts that there's an NF rules against intentional deception, but what if it's not intentional - it still leaves the defender at an unfair disadvantage, so should be against the rules. Is there some other NF clause that disallows such actions if there's no intent to deceive?

9-6-4c implies that it must be an intentional act for such a substitution to qualify as IP. That being said, I think it will have to be a judgement call on the official's part. One thing I would look at is how much time lapsed between the replaced player's exit and the snap. If it is a very short time, I would be inclined to rule this a foul. If there is a longer waiting period, such that B is given some time to recover, I would rule it legal. It difficult to rule on this without seeing a specific situation.

Re: Re: Re: Legal.
 

A player is one of the 11 on a team. Rule 3-7-4 states...During the same dead-ball interval, no substitute shall become a player and then withdraw and no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute unless a penalty is accepted, a dead-ball foul occurs, there is a charged time-out or the period ends.

By implication, when a player withdraws he creates a player vacancy. That vacancy can only be filled by a substitute and according to 3-7-4 the now replaced player cannot become a substitute unless one of the caveats occurs.

Also, the only way to create a player vacancy is by the withdrawl of a player.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Legal.
 

In your orignal statement, you said that this player becomes a replaced player when he creates a vacancy. That's not true. Nothing in 2-30-12 states that.

If a player was never substituted for, then he never became a replaced player. If he was never replaced, he never became a subsitute.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Legal.
 

My ruling is an interpretation of the rules. The logic is quite circular. A player must be on the field. If a player leaves or withdraws during a dead ball interval, he cannot return. He also cannot be a player since he is not on the field, nor can he be a substitute since he is forbidden, by rule. His status for the entire dead ball interval is replaced player. It will change once the down occurs or any of the caveats in 3-7-4 occurs from replaced player to substitute. Then he can re-enter.

If a player withdraws, that is, leaves the field, and returns, he is then subject to illegal participation (9-6-4c) for pretending to be a substitute.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Legal.
 

Ed, I'm playing devil's advocate to some extent. Quite honestly, I think there's validity to both arguments. I guess we just need a good old fashioned case play to help us with this one.

Thanks for the discussion. :)

And here's the good old fashioned case play!
 

SITUATION 4: B11 mistakenly believes he is his team’s 12th player and leaves the field before the snap (a) on his opponent’s sideline, or (b) on his sideline and enters his team box. B11 then discovers his error and returns to field on his team’s side of the neutral zone before the snap.

RULING: Legal in both (a) and (b). B11 is a player, not a replaced player nor a substitute. If done intentionally to gain an advantage, it is an unsportsmanlike conduct foul. If B11 returns to the field after the snap in either (a) or (b), it is a live-ball foul for illegal participation. (3-7-3; 9-5-1f; 9-6-2)