Illegal substitution question

[ploeger76]

Are there any rules to prevent a team from first running an offensive play with only ten players on the field and then during the huddle for the next play attempt to deceive the defense by sending the eleventh player (A) into the huddle and making it appear as if they are replacing another player (B). Just as the huddle breaks player B sprints toward the sideline appearing to leave the field but then sets up as a wide receiver.

[KWH]

Originally posted by ploeger76
Are there any rules to prevent a team from first running an offensive play with only ten players on the field and then during the huddle for the next play attempt to deceive the defense by sending the eleventh player (A) into the huddle and making it appear as if they are replacing another player (B). Just as the huddle breaks player B sprints toward the sideline appearing to leave the field but then sets up as a wide receiver.

Yes, NFHS Rule 9-6-4c makes your play illegal!
It is illegal participation:
To use a player, replaced player or substitute in a substitution or pretend substitution to deceive opponents at or immediatly before the snap or free kick.

Illegal Participation 15 yards

That rule pretty much covers all aspects of your play and others like it...

[ploeger76]

Originally posted by KWH

Yes, NFHS Rule 9-6-4c makes your play illegal!
It is illegal participation:
To use a player, replaced player or substitute in a substitution or pretend substitution to deceive opponents at or immediatly before the snap or free kick.

Illegal Participation 15 yards

That rule pretty much covers all aspects of your play and others like it...

If that is the only rule I am not sure I agree with your call. How about if there is a enough time before the snap so it is not “at or immediately before”?

[ploeger76]

Anyone else have any input on this?

[MN BB Ref]

When I was in High School we used to play against a team that used this play a few times a year. They called it their "Sleeper Play".

In this case the WR would be on the field for the previous play, but then he would jog off to the sideline after the play. However he would never leave the field. Instead he would stand at the edge and appear to talk to the coach. The rest of the team would huddle and form at the line of scrimmage in a tight formation without him. However he would already be lined up on the line and they would then throw a quick out pass to him.

I never seen this called for a penalty as they informed the refs before the game that this play would be used.

Legal or not? I think this would be legal. I'd be interested in everyone else's opinions though.

[ploeger76]

The reason I suggested first having a player sit out on the initial play and going with ten players is I was told there was a rule that required everyone to participate in the huddle if you had a huddle. I don’t see how this can be illegal unless there is a rule against only having ten players on the field. How can a R call this illegal participation? Who is the illegal participant? The WR who was already in the game on the first play or the one sent in as the eleventh player. If “that rule pretty much covers all aspects of this play and others like it...” it would be impossible to ever get the eleventh player back in the game.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by MN BB Ref
When I was in High School we used to play against a team that used this play a few times a year. They called it their "Sleeper Play".

In this case the WR would be on the field for the previous play, but then he would jog off to the sideline after the play. However he would never leave the field. Instead he would stand at the edge and appear to talk to the coach. The rest of the team would huddle and form at the line of scrimmage in a tight formation without him. However he would already be lined up on the line and they would then throw a quick out pass to him.

I never seen this called for a penalty as they informed the refs before the game that this play would be used.

Legal or not? I think this would be legal. I'd be interested in everyone else's opinions though.

If the player is pretending to be a replaced player, this is ILLEGAL.

[ploeger76]

Are you sure that is the correct interpretation of the rule? If it were as simple as that why does the rule itself include the ending "at or immediately before the snap or free kick?" Why would the rule not just say "To use a player, replaced player or substitute in a substitution or pretend substitution to deceive opponents."? Or better yet as simple as "If the player is pretending to be a replaced player, this is ILLEGAL."

Who determines if he is pretending? The WR is just going to his assigned location on the field for the upcoming play.

What do the rest of you think?

[Warrenkicker]

mikesears is exactly right. If you have the illustrated book it shows almost exactly your example on page 81. It is illegal to use a substitution situation to deceive the opponents at or immediately before the snap. By running the player toward the sideline like he was being replaced then you are using that as a deception. The goal of football is to deceive the opponent as to who has the ball and where it is going. Not who is playing.

[ploeger76]

I thought the goal of football was to score more points than your opponent while abiding by the rules of the game. I still think the “at or immediately before the snap” language in the rules leaves an opportunity for this to be a legal technique if timed properly. So it would come down to the interpretation of the rule by the officials. I can’t see where a 5 to 10 second passage of time could be considered “at or immediately before the snap”.

[MD Longhorn]

If player B breaks the huddle with everyone else, I'm not flagging this unless we have coaches or players adding to the deception with "Hurry up, get off the field," or similar comments.

My reason - if he's really a 12th player and he breaks with the huddle, the flag goes right then. This rule is why the defense can and should assume that anyone breaking with the huddle is part of the next play.

However, if this guy leaves before the huddle breaks, and then acts as though he's leaving, and then doesn't leave, we have a flag. To me, this is what the deception rule was intended to prevent.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by mbcrowder
If player B breaks the huddle with everyone else, I'm not flagging this unless we have coaches or players adding to the deception with "Hurry up, get off the field," or similar comments.

My reason - if he's really a 12th player and he breaks with the huddle, the flag goes right then. This rule is why the defense can and should assume that anyone breaking with the huddle is part of the next play.

However, if this guy leaves before the huddle breaks, and then acts as though he's leaving, and then doesn't leave, we have a flag. To me, this is what the deception rule was intended to prevent.

I agree with this totally. If the team breaks a huddle and he goes over there, I've got no problem with that. If he breaks early and hides out near the sideline like he has been replaced, that is illegal.

BTW, can you find a rule that says a team cannot break the huddle with 12 players? (It isn't in the NF rulebook).



[Edited by mikesears on Sep 16th, 2003 at 01:43 PM]

[mikesears]

Originally posted by ploeger76
Are you sure that is the correct interpretation of the rule? If it were as simple as that why does the rule itself include the ending "at or immediately before the snap or free kick?" Why would the rule not just say "To use a player, replaced player or substitute in a substitution or pretend substitution to deceive opponents."? Or better yet as simple as "If the player is pretending to be a replaced player, this is ILLEGAL."

Who determines if he is pretending? The WR is just going to his assigned location on the field for the upcoming play.

What do the rest of you think?

I believe a casebook example exists of this kind of deception. When I get home, I will look this up and share it. I am without my rulebook today

There is a case where 3 players come in, 4 go out and one of the four stops short of the sideline in his position. I believe the ruling states that the official must judge if this was a pretend substitution or not.




My philosophy (and I strongly believe the rules intention) is that the both teams should have the benefit of knowing exactly who is participating during any given down. How else do we explain many of the other rules about substitutions?

[ploeger76]

That is the neat thing about the human element of officiating and interpreting the rules. There is no absolute correct interpretation to every rule so it allows coaches the opportunity to take risks and see what they can get away with. That adds variety and excitement to the game.

[MD Longhorn]

Sorry --- sometimes I assume that rules like this one are the same in both jurisdictions. I'm in Texas - so all I know is NCAA rules, not NF.

The NCAA rule, incidentally, is 3-5-2-c, which in part simply states "A team may not break its huddle with 12 or more players". It's in the section on Legal Substitutions. I'm surprised NF doesn't have a similar rule - this makes things VERY easy to officiate with regards to plays like the one that started this topic.