The right calls
 

Two calls. 1st and ten, 20 yrd run with a holding penalty at the 12 yard mark of the run. Call was 10 yrd penalty from spot of foul. Made it 1st and 8. Should it have been loss of down?
Second call. Personl foul against defense on a 20 yrd offensive run. Penalty was declined. Why wouldn't 15 yrds be added on to end of run?

1st and 8 is correct.. Why would there be a loss of down?

15 should've been added to the end of the run.

Down is always repeated on an accepted penalty, unless a loss of down is specified. Holding is not one of those fouls.

Ask the coach why he declined the penalty on the PF.

Not possible. No good R would even ask.

Don't think he's an R, Rich:confused:

I know....and I know the R/crew screwed up the enforcement. Cause no coach would decline a tack-on and no good crew would bother asking.

It's always dangerous to assume. Perhaps this is a coach who INSISTS on making decisions, and has previously advised he does not NEED advice from anyone about anything.

There are only 3 fouls that specify a loss of down in NFHS (high school) football:
Illegal forward pass
Illegal handing
Illegal touching

Would not change a thing.

I run a game, not the coaches.

I had a MS "playoff" game last Wed. evening. Home is up 30-12 when visitors score with :26 on the clock. On the try A doesn't score and the wings flag IF. I signal the foul and declined and get ready to split off for the kickoff when the LJ comes in to tell me that B coach wants to accept the penalty.

"What the #@$% does he want to do that for?"
"He wants the kids to get another play."
"This is when a kid will break his #@$+% leg or blow his #@$% knee out."
"He wants another play."
"I hope K recovers the inevitable onside kick."

We bring both teams back and run a once again unsuccessful try.
Earlier the same coach takes another IF penalty on second down when the play lost yardage. The difference in distance was about two yards between the play and the penalty. He chose the penalty and repeating the down vs. 3rd down.

Not to belabor a point, but NFHS 2-32-5 DESIGNATES the team Captain to "represent his team during; (b) Penalty decisions following a foul", which is very often aided, considerably, by advice from either/both his Coach or a wise and prudent Referee.

Belabor all you want. Doesn't change a thing.

Sure, if the penalty were accepted, which should've been made clear to the captain. But nothing says they have to accept it.

There's a serious disconnect in this thread. The penalty should've been enforced and the ball made ready for play without any interaction with the defense.

I know I sound like a broken record, but there are some lesser experienced Rs out there that need to know that obvious penalties should be enforced without consulting the offended team.

Sure they can decline the penalty...but they'd have to chase me down and insist we not enforce it. Which they wouldn't.

But you could make the latter statement before they 1st step onto the field, or play any down. You might as well say football should never be played.

Were the teams playing for stakes, & primarily for the stakes? If not, then the important thing to keep in mind is this is play, not work. No matter what the score is, playing is playing. I could understand the complaint if one team were slaughtering the other so bad physically (not just technically) at most positions that the entire game in retrospect was more danger than it was worth, should never have been played to begin with, and should be ended ASAP. But otherwise, if the game is practically decided score-wise, the fact that they keep playing means that they enjoy it. Why spoil their fun?

Do you ever officiate scrimmages? Why should you? They risk injury & don't even keep score. Replaying a try down in a situation where the teams are no longer paying att'n to the score is just like a down in a scrimmage.

I agree with you Rich, I never even ask about tack on penalties. It is an automatic. I even tell my coaches when meeting with them, if we have a penalty and the choice is an obvious one, we are marking it and playing on, if there is a question, I will get with captain and also look at the coach.

It's perfectly understandable that, "When in Rome, do like a Roman", but that doesn't mean Romans get to decide what everyone else should do.

This.

Here is the problem with that logic. There is going to be a time when someone will not accept to take one of these "obvious" situations that "you" think is going to take place. I always have a very brief conversation with a captain or coach by telling them what we are going to do. I feel more comfortable with that process than just making it totally without their knowledge. All of this is done while we make sure we have right yardage or not just going "half the distance" on an enforcement.

Peace

There is one case where tacking yardage on to the end of the run may not be favorable to the offense:

Line to gain is the opponents 20 yard line. Down and distance to go don't matter at this point of the example. The offense makes the line to gain and is tackled at the 18 yard line, and the defense is flagged for a personal foul face mask. When the clock is stopped for penalty enforcement, there is 3:00 remaining in the game and the offense is up by 1 point. In this case, there is enough time that the offense cannot run out the clock without getting a first down, but the penalty if accepted would result in half the distance to the goal (1st and goal from the 9) and the offense cannot run out the clock because they will score (TD or FG) or have a turnover (on downs or otherwise) before the clock expires. If the offense scores, the score differential will still be just 1 score unless the offense makes a 2 point conversion (which they would be unlikely to attempt unless they can't make a kick to save their lives). There aren't many, but some coaches are smart enough to realize that they are better off letting the offense score in that situation and trying to tie the game with 2:00 or more on the clock than trying to make a stop then go the length of the field with 0:20. There are also some coaches that coach their offenses not to score in those situations if a first down will allow them to run out the clock. I'm a proponent of the let them score, but not a fan of the don't score strategy, but regardless, automatically enforcing the penalty takes that piece of strategy away from the offense.

Ultimately my point is be careful of doing anything automatically. While I generally agree with Rich's position, I also hold the position that doing stuff in a rote/automatic manner without thinking about it can be dangerous. I think there are some guys that have been around long enough to get these nuances, and others don't and would benefit from not putting things on auto-pilot.

I've seen Rs consult B captains on false start penalties when it's 1st and 10.

Middle ground, yes. Nuance, yes.

It's not good to be a robot in either direction.

As I've said before, I favor "obvious choice" administration, but always w the recognition that if they want to decline, you leave them the opp'ty to do so. Like, "You want this spot, right? Hearing no objection...."

That is pretty much how I do it. I do not like to assume anything. And usually I do that when I am making sure we are marking it off from the right spot and just say, "You want the first down?" or "You want 15 more yard.....?" I am not looking for a real answer, but just an acknowledgment that they are getting the yardage and confirming it is not on them.

Peace

If you start to mark it off and the coach tells you he wants to decline it, there is an easy fix for that. If you have a mic, it is even easier.

As someone who has been an R for a long time, no chance I'm doing this.

If someone doesn't want 15 more yards, they can get my attention. Doing this on every play is a time-waster.

I have to admit, our crew runs this same way.

I will add that while we are sorting out the spot, number of the player, etc., my wings are usually already informing the sidelines on what is going on at or before we start walking it off...and it's been that way for 2 decades.

I was a Referee for a long time, moved to Back Judge and now a Referee again. You do what works for you. I just have seen many times Referees assuming something and then having to come back and do something else other than what is "obvious."

I also did not say doing it on every play and I said that I do this while we are figuring out the enforcement. On my crew, we have some checks and balances to make sure we are going from the proper spot or that we have the right enforcement and what the result of the play was too. I want to make sure we all know the enforcement and while that is going on I walk by the captain or coach and say, "You are going to want this tacked on right?" They say usually yes and I give my final signal and we move on. Never had anyone complain about this procedure.

One time we thought ti was obvious as you suggest it is, we had a coach say, "I do not want to accept that penalty" and it took us several minutes to get it right. Never want that to happen again. And honestly I am not doing this because of what others do, because of what has happened to our crew and what I feel comfortable about. I really do not care if it takes a few extra seconds. I am not going anywhere.

Peace