We need a new signal for IF!
 

Had at least 10 live ball false starts the other night if you listened to the PA guy! Officials kept yelling 5 backs at the sidelines.

Are you saying something about the 5 backs too...or just the PA guy?

Our wings see that we (R/U) have 11 and then count the backs. They only actually count linemen if we signal 10.

Too bad the NFHS doesn't see the wisdom in the NCAA rule -- there's no good reason to penalize 6 on the line when there are 10 on the field.

No, we do not need a new signal. That is what the microphone is for. If you need that much communication, get a microphone for the games. ;)

And there is no reason for a rules change either. I like the NF rule.

Peace

Agreed. It is easier to officiate too IMO.

That said it is amusing to hear the "false start" on a live ball foul coming from the announcer. One of my first games of the season, somebody on the crew flagged an illegal formation that ended up calling back a score. The announcer called it a false start and a parent started yelling "If it was false start you should have blown your whistle blah blah blah."

One of the coaches for the team that fouled turned around and yelled back at his fan "It wasn't a false start! Now shut up!" :D

Hell after a while I thought they were calling travelling!!!
:)

I agree we need a separate signal. Perhaps it could be the signal given by men to silently describe a voluptuous woman's shape.

On top of that, the "dead ball foul" signal is completely worthless on those presnap fouls -- NCAA has eliminated them and it would be nice to see the NFHS (officially) do the same.

10 on the field for a punt, 6 on the line.

10 on the field anytime, 6 on the line.

I can't imagine a single reason why this should be a formation foul and can't understand why anyone (Rut, care to explain) thinks the rule is "OK as it is."

That would have been hard to keep a straight face if I heard that for sure.

Again, problem solved if the Referee is mic'd.

Peace

I think this is a solution looking for a problem. I think it makes no difference either way. All rules that work at the higher levels do not need to be changed at the high school level. This is one of those rules IMO that makes no competitive advantage or even common sense to just require 4 in the backfield. All the other time they can have more on the line, but if we have 10 now we have to make sure they have 4 in the backfield. Sorry, that sounds very unnecessary to me. And I work college so this does not bother me at all that the rule is different. Honestly I do not get why NCAA felt the need to change in the first place. But then again I am almost never a short wing so this is not something I have to worry about most of the time if ever. I would much rather worry about getting more official on the field and covering more things than worrying about a rule that does not make you better because you have 4 in the backfield with only 10 or fewer on the field.

Again, just an opinion. It does not have to be right. But I get a little tired of always trying to change a high school rule because college or pro has that rule.

I do have a question about this rule overall. Does NFL have this rule in place?

Peace

It is easier to count backs than to count linemen. Much easier in college.

OK, but still trying to figure out why creates a competitive advantage. Something that only makes it easier for us to me is not a good reason for a rules change. Also in college you have many more things to consider as well.

Peace

My point is that it doesn't create a competitive advantage in HS to have 10 on the field and 6 on the line, so it *shouldn't be a foul.*

Such as?

Canadian football had that provision for if team A was playing short long before NCAA had it, and even before I saw the Canadian rule I thought that's how it should be. Somebody a long time ago conceived it as a minimum on the line instead of a maximum in the backfield, when it's clear the latter was the effect they wanted.

Low blocks in many areas of the line, not just a confined area as small as the FBZ, changes for a player that goes in motion as well.

Peace

But that has nothing to do with formation fouls.

I did not say it did. We have other things to watch or observe than just a formation foul, which is why I do not see why this change would be so much better. How hard is it to communicate you have 10 players and adjust? Two people are counting the offense every play and should be able to tell the wings that there are 10 and realize how many are in the backfield.

Peace

You have other things to watch for? Sure, you do.

But you still need to know if there's IF -- that's a wing's call, nobody else's. You're counting backs regardless of how the rule's written.

(1) Fewer than 7 on the line? Now you need to know how many are on the field.

(2) 5 in the backfield? Now you don't need to worry about the number of A players on the field. Your job's actually easier!

Again a solution looking for a problem. I do not see anyone having a hard time with this. It is so rare that you have 10 on the field, who cares how many are in the backfield. That is why you count. You count 4 in the backfield and there are 12 on the field now what? Are you going to assume you have the right number on the field?

Peace

No, because you should always count the team first. THEN you can look for the number of backs.

It ain't rocket science.

In 5-man, the wings (LJ primary, HL if he gets to it) are counting the defense with the BJ and are then getting the offensive count from the R/U, then counting the backs.

What I've said at least twice now, which hasn't gotten through cause someone doesn't ever want to hear, is if the rule was changed there's be no reason for the wings to have to pick up the count of the offense if the rule was the same as the NCAA rule. They could just count the defense and then count the backs.

Yes but who is doing the count? Wings are not always doing the same count. Yes it is not rocket science, but if a wing is not doing the count, they are relying on someone else to give them information. At least where I live, the LJ is supposed to count defense. The Umpire and Referee are the main people counting offense. So if you have fewer than 11, the wing does not have to complicate this by worrying about how many are in the backfield compared to how many are actually on the field.

Peace

It is not about willing to hear you, I just do not agree with your position. It is OK Rich, not any sweat off my back. I just do not think the rule is appropriate for HS. If you do that is fine with me. But it is OK that I disagree with what rules should be used at other levels. If they change the rule again no sweat off my back. But something tells me they won't for such a minor issue IMO.

Peace

In our state, the wings count the team on their sideline all night. R counts offense, BJ counts defense. U has numbering 50-79. There are two officials counting each team on each play.

You have this completely flipped.

It is faster to count backs than it is number of linemen.

If the rule requires no more than 4 in the backfield, it doesn't matter how many players the offense has.

As it stands now, in Fed, if you want to count backs to determine legality, you need to pick up the count from the R or U. Otherwise you need to count the linemen which isn't all that easy sometimes.

Not to mention the fact that if the offense is lined up with a missing lineman, it's going to be a foul and it's a dumb one. Not a problem in NCAA.

Having called high school under both rules, I'd much rather have the NCAA rule. It would be a simple and pain free change to make.

Fed still requires 7 on the line? Really??

Do ya'll play with leather helmets and no face masks too? (Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

Yeah...let's just say this transition back to Fed rules has not been enjoyable.

I just worked my first college game this past weekend as a short wing and I saw nothing special about how many I counted in the backfield. Absolutely none.

I watched the Umpire and Referee signal and went off of them as I would have done in any HS game. And to add we did not have a single situation where we played with 10 at any point in the game. I have been the Referee on my high school crew and we maybe have only once had 10 on the in 3 games and that was on a scrimmage kick formation. Again this sounds like a solution looking for a problem. Everything done at the higher levels is not a good or great idea for that level. And football is one of those sports that really does not need a college rule to apply to the high school level. Other sports the game is not so different at its core.

That is why again I said I see no point in changing the rule when this is almost an insignificant and almost never is an issue. If this happen every game I could see it, but offenses do not go out unknowingly playing with 10 players. When someone is missing a coach or player is calling a timeout. And we are worried about this rule of how many should be on the line or in the backfield? Really???

Peace

We need a new signal for IF!
 

I would expect counting backs would be exactly the same between high school and college and that's exactly the point.

As I said before, I've see it happen enough that it's worth changing to get rid of a dumb foul. The only reason not to change is to be different from college and that's a pointless argument against.

I haven't. Usually the problem with offenses is they line up wrong and cover an eligible receiver (a flag I had on Saturday BTW). Hardly ever see where they unknowingly play with 10. The times they have 10, someone yells over to the sideline and gets the 11th guy on the field or notice that he was missing and it never is a factor to where you have to count who is in the backfield.

Again, this is like arguing if you like a blonde over a brunette or a big butt over a small waist. At the end of the day I am going to be alright with what I like you will be fine with what you like. And if this is a hard adjustment, I feel there are bigger issues to worry about adjustment from the two codes.

Oh well.

Peace

So, what do you do? Do you count seven linemen on every play?

Rich I believe I made it very clear what we do. The wings are not responsible for counting the offense and one wing is usually counting the defense (the LJ). The count comes from the R and the U. If the numbers are correct, all you have to do is count 4 in the backfield or realize someone is covered up (which we would communicate by other signals to each wing). We have the wings worry about catching substitutions or eligible, not counting the entire offense.

Again, I do not see this as a problem. It works pretty well just like other aspects of officiating a football game where we have to work together.

Peace

Isn't this what I said?

You have to get the "11" signal from the R/U and then you count the backs.

In NCAA rules, you don't bother with looking for that signal -- you just count the backs.

It's not the mechanics that I care about, though. Anyone who's ever had 10 run out on a punt and have 6 on the line and had to throw a IF flag for no good reason wishes the rule was written like the NCAA rule was written.

I really do not know what you are saying or trying to suggest is hard. The wings in my world do not do a count of all players on offense unless some crews insist on having the count from their sideline's team. But that is rare.

And if you do not worry about a signal, OK. I guess. Again not something I worry about or have to worry about on my crews at either level.

Again such a rare situation to even deal with, but I guess someone has to worry about something while we officiate. Just not something I worry about. I am indifferent either way. It does not need to be changed because some college guys do not like the rule. That is poor reasoning as I have not heard major complaining by anyone for this rule but a few college officials.

Peace

You mustn't work a lot of JV or freshman games. I do -- it gives me something to do on Monday and Thursday nights. The number of times we "run short" on special teams plays at those levels is staggering.

And if they don't move a 7th player up to the line, it's a foul.

I'd just rather have that not be a foul, is all.

I do not work a lot if any JV or freshman football. I do not have the time with the other things I am doing in work or in my associations. I work only Fridays and Saturdays and still, I do not see this as a big issue. And a lot of those levels you mentioned will not even do the kicking game at all other than maybe a kickoff. Otherwise a freshman game might not do a single punt during the game as they just agree to move the ball forward and set it down 30 yards ahead or some agreed distance. And if I did still work the game, I never saw this as a huge problem the other 15 years or so I worked a lot of lower level ball.

OK. I do not care either way. And if you can put them on the line, then you have a decision to make I guess.

Peace

Our lower level games at the HS level are played no differently than varsity games. Special teams included. Occasionally they'll waive numbering requirements based on players/jerseys.

Youth games (up through 6th or 7th grade) eliminate some of those aspects. Those games pay well for the time involved, but you always have to figure out what rules have been invented for that night.

This is totally up to the schools. And if they have a light freshman team they might not have enough kids to play special teams and want to eliminate them. It is not a state mandate or something done across the board, just something that commonly is used in our games. And we do not wave numbering unless there is such a problem that we have to do something to just play the game. These are always a case by case situation. They play like 8 levels at a school (I am kind of exaggerating) so it is hard to field complete teams for each level sometimes. These non-Friday night contests are just to get kids a chance to play. So special teams can be eliminated if the coaches agree to it. And as an official I never discourage or encourage what they wish to do for their programs.

Peace

Has the dead horse been beaten enough yet?

My opinion:
I work games under both rulesets.

The NCAA rule is better than the NFHS rule.

The NFHS rule will probably never change due to apathy on the part of the rulesmakers, which is the same reason why the "opponent of the scoring shall designate which team will kick off" rule is still on the books in FED.

I actually don't mind the difference too much; it makes for a great illustration of the "the rules for HS and college are basically the same, but subtle changes in wording of the rule can make a big difference" conversation piece when talking to non-officials or newbie officials.

Good way to end this.