Out of bounds?

rbruno

Saw this in a Div 1 college game, but didn't see how was ruled.
Looking for NFHS ruling since I am a HS official.
Player A-1 is dribbling up the sideline and accidently hits B-1 who is out of bounds heading for the table to report in on the next dead ball. A-1 falls and loses control of the ball out of bounds.
What is the call?

Scrapper1

Hi Bruno,

We talked about this exact play a while back. Here's the link. Feel free to add any thoughts.

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=29916

Dryuri2003

We had a player shoot the ball on a layup, and miss the shot, he went out of bounds, came back in bounds, and then grabbed the ball, isnt he considered inbounds???

Back In The Saddle

Dryuri2003 wrote
We had a player shoot the ball on a layup, and miss the shot, he went out of bounds, came back in bounds, and then grabbed the ball, isnt he considered inbounds???

If he has something touching inbounds, and nothing touching out of bounds, he's inbounds and remains inbounds until such time as he touches out of bounds again.

Dryuri2003

Ok, thanks Saddle Man.

So your saying, whether he goes out of bounds or not, he came back in bounds and re-established himself, so that means he could pick up the ball. We had an official say that because he shot the ball and he went out of bounds he could not come back in bounds and pick up the ball. We have always been taught that once you go out of bounds if you establish yourself back in bounds you can proceed to pick up the ball, no matter the event that got you there....

Is that correct?? Do you know of a rulebook online that I can review??

Back In The Saddle

Dryuri2003 wrote
Ok, thanks Saddle Man.

So your saying, whether he goes out of bounds or not, he came back in bounds and re-established himself, so that means he could pick up the ball. We had an official say that because he shot the ball and he went out of bounds he could not come back in bounds and pick up the ball. We have always been taught that once you go out of bounds if you establish yourself back in bounds you can proceed to pick up the ball, no matter the event that got you there....

Is that correct?? Do you know of a rulebook online that I can review??

What you have been taught is correct. Whether there is a shot involved makes no difference. You can check out the NCAA book online; the high school book is not available online. But the rules are the same in this regard.

DownTownTonyBrown

So... after reading 7.1.1A

what would we call if we felt the incoming substitute initiated the contact from OOB?

Say the substitute thinks the dribbler is going to fall into him and the sub then sticks out a hand to prevent the collision ... and then the dribbler subsequently falls down, loses the ball, or collides with a legal defender...

Would the team affiliation of the incoming sub make any difference in the ruling?

Nevadaref

DownTownTonyBrown wrote
So... after reading 7.1.1A

what would we call if we felt the incoming substitute initiated the contact from OOB?

The only call that could be made here is an unsporting technical foul on a member of bench personnel.

DownTownTonyBrown wrote
Say the substitute thinks the dribbler is going to fall into him and the sub then sticks out a hand to prevent the collision ... and then the dribbler subsequently falls down, loses the ball, or collides with a legal defender...

If the sub interfered with a member of the opposing team during play, it is probably a T. I could see passing on it, if it was clearly not an unsporting act. If it was his own team, just call the play as if there were no contact between these two.

DownTownTonyBrown wrote
Would the team affiliation of the incoming sub make any difference in the ruling?

Darn right it would matter to me.

gazebra

The sub was from the defensive team and tripped the kid as he was coming off the bench due to the lack of space between the side line and the floor, and the official just simply gave the ball back to the offensive team as though it was out of bounds off the defensive team. In that case, I think it was the right thing to do, as it was clearly not an unsporting act. The defensive sub didn't even know the ball was right there, and he was trying to get past his coach. As for if the sub reached out, that would be the judgement of the official if he were protecting himself/the dribbler or not. If so, put it out of bounds. Neither coach said a word in the college game.

Scrapper1

gazebra wrote
The sub was from the defensive team and tripped the kid as he was coming off the bench due to the lack of space between the side line and the floor

This is such a pain in the butt and it happens at every single game I'm at. Why do the chairs for the teams have to be 3 feet from the inbounds line? Why can't we have 10 feet of space for people to make throw-ins, or to walk to the table for subs? Doesn't football have a rule about how close the teams can stand to the sidelines? Maybe basketball should have a similar rule, at least for Division 1. They can afford whatever small expense it might take.

mbyron

The expense arises in having less space for (paying) fans. Remove the first row, and you could lose a lot of revenue...

Remember: we all have our priorities. Do you think the convenience of officials and inbounders will trump the almighty dollar?

Mark Dexter

Scrapper1 wrote
This is such a pain in the butt and it happens at every single game I'm at. Why do the chairs for the teams have to be 3 feet from the inbounds line? Why can't we have 10 feet of space for people to make throw-ins, or to walk to the table for subs? Doesn't football have a rule about how close the teams can stand to the sidelines? Maybe basketball should have a similar rule, at least for Division 1. They can afford whatever small expense it might take.

Not really - a lot of gyms have bleachers that can't be moved back.

Scrapper1

mbyron wrote
The expense arises in having less space for (paying) fans. Remove the first row, and you could lose a lot of revenue...

I doubt you'd lose "a lot" of revenue. (It's not like you're losing a row of your most expensive seats. The second row just becomes the new first row and you pay first row prices.) And anyway, that's why I said it should apply to Division 1 schools, at least. If anybody can afford it, they can. This scenario should not happen in a major conference D1 game.

Scrapper1

Mark Dexter wrote
Not really - a lot of gyms have bleachers that can't be moved back.

See above. 🙂

WhistlesAndStripes

Back In The Saddle wrote
What you have been taught is correct. Whether there is a shot involved makes no difference. You can check out the NCAA book online; the high school book is not available online. But the rules are the same in this regard.

Actually, the NFHS book is available online, you just have to be a member to access it. Most states include your NFHS membership with your registration.

Back In The Saddle

Whistles & Stripes wrote
Actually, the NFHS book is available online, you just have to be a member to access it. Most states include your NFHS membership with your registration.

How many states actually do this? Utah doesn't.

ref2coach

Whistles & Stripes wrote
Actually, the NFHS book is available online, you just have to be a member to access it. Most states include your NFHS membership with your registration.

TN does not. I would like to access it online but don't want to pay the $30 to NFHS for just online access. Everything else in the $30 I already get from the State.

Mark Dexter

Scrapper1 wrote
See above. 🙂

Nope.

A lot of gyms have bleacher seating and most bleachers are designed to only be used when they are fully extended. Once you factor in the width of the scorer's/stat/media tables, you're at the court.

Nevadaref

gazebra wrote
The sub was from the defensive team and tripped the kid as he was coming off the bench due to the lack of space between the side line and the floor, and the official just simply gave the ball back to the offensive team as though it was out of bounds off the defensive team. In that case, I think it was the right thing to do, as it was clearly not an unsporting act. The defensive sub didn't even know the ball was right there, and he was trying to get past his coach. As for if the sub reached out, that would be the judgement of the official if he were protecting himself/the dribbler or not. If so, put it out of bounds. Neither coach said a word in the college game.

I wrote the original post on this situation. The key element was that the contact occurred on the out of bounds side of the boundary plane. As for whether or not the right call was made by the official, that's debateable. There is no rules support other than 2-3 for what the official did. I do agree that the play was not an unsporting act.

gazebra

I think that was the only "common sense" thing to do--when it is a facility issue, how can you penalize either team?