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If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight. As soon as the player ended her dribble, her arm movements and steps tell us she's started her shooting motion. If the contact by 15 is illegal, I would allow the offensive player the customary arm and foot movements involved while holding the ball. |
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When in doubt, or if it's close, I'll put the player on the line...the team whose player committed the illegal act does not get the benefit of the doubt. |
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At full speed, I can't quite tell whether she had gathered the ball when #15 swiped at her arm. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter there, too, and shots would be given (assuming I called the foul). I recognize this is a case where the two benefits of the doubt are mutually exclusive, but I highly doubt I'd process it that fast in real time. |
i watched the the video one time only. I agree with those who wondered what the hell 15 did to have a foul called. I agree with Camron that she traveled. i thought she put two hands on ball and then might have been touched by 15 at that moment. i did not see her arms moving up at that time. I'm not giving her two shots. i need to see some movement up before i give her two. that is giving her benefit of doubt because we know she could still shoot or pass. i will give her two if i see her on way up. before then i wont.
obviously, you have to gather the ball before you can shoot it but i dont see contact immediatelyh after the gather, down low, before arm moves up, as "habitual throwing motion etc." |
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i do know ncaa does not include foot movement for continuous motion. thx |
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4-41 ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. |
The word "gathering" should not ever be used. Quoting both the NFHS and NCAA rules: "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."
"(T)he motion which habitually precedes the releas of the ball" in our video is when the dribbler ends her dribble. It is my opinion, after watching the video, that #15 actions do not rise to the level of a foul, but was the dribbler was fouled by the next defensive player after #15. I agree with Camron that the dribbler was fouled in the act of shooting but her allowable foot movements ended before she released the ball in a FG. MTD, Sr. |
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I watched the video again, I'm changing my mind. I'm giving 2 shots. She is starting the shot as she gets fouled. However, I'm still sticking by a gather doesn't mean shooting motion.
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We had a long thread on this several years ago immediately after the NCAA stated that officials were not awarding FTs for fouls committed during the act of shooting properly and that after a player had gathered the ball fouls should be deemed in the act of shooting. NCAAM subsequently changed again a year or so later to the upward movement standard.
The NFHS has never had such a directive. I stated in the thread way back then that some sort of motion with the arms that indicated the start of an attempt to try for goal was necessary at the NFHS level. Simply ending the dribble is not enough as a player could also be passing or just coming to a stop. There has to be some movement after that point make the official believe that a try has begun. |
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Peace |
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I concur that the key is how one defines "usual throwing motion" or "habitual motion." I disagree that it is just gathering the ball. It is definitely something more. |
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