Disallow the Goal?
 

This is a play that happened in a 3-on-3 game between some Old School work buddies down at the park after work last night.

A1 makes a short jump shot which passes thru the hoop. As the ball is traveling downward thru the net, and is probably 2/3 of the way thru the travel, player A2 contacts the net. The ball finishes traveling thru the net and exits downward, falling on the ground for an apparent Team A victory. Team B self-designated captain, protests that this was illegal contact with the net, and the goal is disallowed and a violation is called on Team A, giving Team B the possession out top.

What is the correct call?

Grab a rules book and read the definition of basket interference.

Basket interference by rule. However, I've seen officials not call it when a player just swipes a finger on the net.

Did y'all tell them that was a weak-a$$ call?

Not sure if you remember the play, but this happened in one of your camp games last Saturday! ;):D

Yes, this is an infraction by the letter of the rule but I've never called it short of it actually affecting the shot...a mere touch of the bottom of the net is not what the rule was intended to address.

Most definitely. I was Lead tableside at the opposite end of the court from you and Mark. I had an And-1 and I saw a hand pull on the net as the ball was about to drop completely through.

Did Mark have any thoughts on it? He didn't say anything about the play after the game.

We talked on the play briefly. Mark asked if it was a rule difference between the NBA vs NFHS/NCAA. Under NBA rules, it's not a violation unless the pulling of the net causes the ball to take an unnatural bounce.

All and all, said it was a good one to lay off on.

Which is the intent of the NFHS/NCAA rule and the way I call it.

It is?

I realize the NCAA case book plays only mention the ring but there aren't any that mention the net. However, since touching the net while the ball is within the basket is also BI under both codes I'll take a leap of faith that the ruling would be the same.

I see it happen quite often and have yet to have seen it called even once. In all the times I've seen it there has never been a word said about it by coaches, announcers, players, or anyone around the game. Most people realize that merely touching the net as the ball is falling through or on the rim really isn't enough to affect the shot. Grabbing the net is, of course, different.

Oh, I understand that part. However, the day one of my NCAAW or HS assignors tells me the intent of the rule is "it's not a violation unless the pulling of the net causes the ball to take an unnatural bounce" will be the first.

Every time they see this play and don't criticize the officials for not calling it, they are effectively doing exactly that.

What's the definition of "on" the rim?

The OP makes it sound like the ball had already gone past the ring. At that point it doesn't sound like the ball is "on" the rim, and therefore should be counted.

ART. 1 . . . Touches the ball or any part of the basket (including the net) while the ball is on or within either basket.

I was going by this quote from JetMetFan...

But to further play devil's advocate, at what point is the ball no longer within the basket? A ball doesn't have to pass through the net in order to be counted, it just has to go through the ring. So if it's past the ring, then it would seem the ball is no longer within the basket. Therefore... again, in the OP, you'd count the basket.

Wow, I hope that you only officiate games which don't have a chance of having any BI or GT calls because you are woefully unaware of the rules for these situations.

Now go read the definitions of the basket and a made goal.

While I could look up all this stuff before posting, I like to test my knowledge or lack thereof. Therefore, sometimes, I don't go "open book" when talking around here. I went by things written by others and responded.

I'm getting ready for work, so I don't have time to go nuts in the book, but I didn't come across a clear definition of a made basket. Rule 5 states that a goal is made when a live ball enters a basket from above and remains in or passes through. The definition for basket interference was given above, and just states the "on or within" thing. There doesn't seem to be a definition of "basket" or "made goal".

Now Get Back To Work ...
 

(I've got today off from work.)

1-10-1: Each basket shall consist of a single metal ring ... its flange and braces, and a ... net ... suspended from beneath the ring.

5-1-1: A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through.

But it is a goal if the ball remains in the net, not just passes through. So thanks for that, but it still doesn't answer the question of when a made basket counts, and how that relates to the op.

"Remains in" is referring to a situation when the net has become stuck (legally) and the ball can't pass through. So, that element is not relevant to this discussion. BI, technically, is possible until the ball comes out of the bottom of the net.

OK, the various rules are confusing, and it doesn't help that I'm on my phone right now. The consensus here is that BI is right. Correct?

Why We Get Paid The Big Bucks ...
 

Technically, on the written test, it's an offensive basket interference violation. No goal. Easy call on a written test.

In my real game, in real time, if I'm the trail official, and if the ball is totally in the net, totally controlled by gravity alone, and the net is just barely touched by the offensive player, it's a no call for me.

However, if the ball is on the rim, or is rattling around inside the net, or the net is grabbed, not just touched, I'm calling the offensive basket interference violation.

The Intent And Purpose Of The Rules
The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a
balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the
defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and tall player; to
provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting
behavior and fair play; and to emphasize cleverness and skill without unduly
limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense.
Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may
be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be
permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be
permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not
intended by a rule.

Consensus ???
 

Check it out. With the exception of BillyMac, the guy with the black belt, a whistle in his pocket, and always working in a two person crew, these other guys really know their stuff:

To start off, I totally agree, and thank you.

As a young official going by intent is scary. I mean, I feel I'm not experienced or respected enough to get away with this argument.

Sorry to be pushy, but if I am in this situation and an assignor asks, it's nice to have a solid answer that's backed up by the rules.

"Thinking" about what the answer might be before looking it up is a good thing. Just posting it here, not so much. imo anyway.

And, yes, sometimes you need to look in more than one spot in the book. That's where the paper version (as opposed to the electronic versions) comes in handy, I think. You'll often find other stuff that you didn't know when you are looking for an answer.

It's not a basket until the ball passes through the bottom of the net. If you're working NCAA, that's when the clock stops in the last minute of play.

“A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through.” (NFHS 5-1-1)

As has been said before, the "remains in" is for when the bottom of the net is tangled such that the ball gets stuck in the net. Otherwise, you could have offensive players "finish" the shot by jamming a jump shot down once it has fallen partially into the basket.

Is there any written reference for that explanation? It is possible that a new net is too tight to let the ball pass immediately through. Years ago, we were instructed to check the nets, at least by watching the ball during warm-ups, to verify whether any difficulty might occur, because of a new net.

That is another possibility....basically something wrong with the basket so that i can't pass through.

I see this at least a few times a season. I always think that technically it's BI as I'm not blowing my whistle.