5 seconds in the post
 

Disagreement at recent clinic: Who monitors -- and how -- post player NOT in the paint holding the ball, with regard to 5 seconds. Some shrugged and said "never seen it" (me either) but what happens when huge, young Shaqlette decides to hold ball in one hand and wave it around for about 7 seconds while either toying with an opponent or just figuring out who to pass to?

Common lines: "Lead never has a visible count," "Trail has to look in and help," "Can't call 5 seconds without a demonstrated count"

Resulted in a whole lot of bupkus and no definitive answer about who calls it and how it's counted out.

Lead counts if in his primary.

Full arm swing, or free-throw fingers down at side only?

A normal count.

A 5 second count is a 5 second count. The arm swing is irrelevant. Why would the lead not have this count? Does the closely guarded rule not apply to post play?

Two or three official mechanics?

Clinician was emphasizing there's no visible count for 3 seconds so was asked about a possible 5-second count by the lead and seemed to get flustered, saying he'd never seen it. We were talking 3-person at the time.

If it is 3 person and the mechanics I am aware of, the lead does not give a closely guarded count. Two person, the lead has a count and you also have one less official.

Peace

That's what I've been taught:
3-person = Trail takes any 5-second count on the strong side.
2-person = each official has responsibility for 5-second counts starting in his PCA.

NFHS manual for HS says...
Someone can probably consult the CCA manual and post the relevant passage.

In Men's, you do not ever give a count as a lead either. The focus on the lead is is post play which you might get to late and one of the reasons you do not have a count IMO.

Peace

Agree.

NFHS Officials Manual 3.3.2 PRIMARY COVERAGE AREAS (PCA):
B. 1. Officials are responsible for a five-second count iwithin their primary coverage area.

2 or 3 reference?

Peace

When we are talking about PCA responsibilities, it is imperative that we know whether the situation is 2-man or 3-man.

3-person crew reference, with diagram 3-18.

2-person crew statement is the same, at 2.3.2 B. 1. with diagram 2-18, in the NFHS Officials Manual.

The logic of Trail being responsible for the 5-second count on post players on the strong side is reasonable.
But in our area it is rarely called, and rarely neccessary. I can't remember when it's been pre-gamed.
And it seems that many, especially coaches, have the idea that a 5-second count doesn't apply to post players. I've been asked by partners why I had a count, as Lead, in both 2-man and 3-man, because they didn't think it applied to post players.
And I had a coach, a couple of years ago, tell me "You can't make that call on a post player!"

This is what I've been taught -- I had never heard the "Lead doesn't do closely guarded counts" before. Since the Lead's primary extends out to just inside the 3 pt line, I would start a 5 second closely guarded count if applicable outside of the lane.

The reason I asked is because my state does not use the NF Mechanics Manual anymore and has not for probably 10 years or so. And it is very much expressed that the Lead should never have a count in our mechanics. There is even a video example of this mechanic in our state.

And I think that the lead should concentrate on contact and not a count. And often that count would have started before the Lead could take a count IMO.

The Trail is already looking in the post for traveling and even some foul coverage. Let the Lead concentrate on all the bodies on coming to the ball, not worry about that and a count.

Peace

I agree with all of this and have done this in all states/associations I have worked. In 3-man, the lead never gets the closely guarded count. The trail official should be engaging the play, getting backside illegal contact, traveling, and the closely guarded count. As JRut said, the lead should be focused on contact.

Very reasonable, and I think this is a better way to cover post play, especially when there are bigs tht are the focus of their offenses.
Of course,a good pre-game could allow partners to adopt this.

My answer was the book answer.

YMMV, locally, but I count as the L in 3-person if the count starts in my primary.

That is my customary method, also.