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-   -   Looks like Oregon is finally adopting 3 person mechanics...sort of... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/99764-looks-like-oregon-finally-adopting-3-person-mechanics-sort.html)

OrStBballRef Sun May 10, 2015 10:22pm

Looks like Oregon is finally adopting 3 person mechanics...sort of...
 
Received an email tonight from our officials association and 3 man mechanics were finally approved. Caveat being certain leagues can choose or not to choose to elect 3 man. Games are assigned via association commissioners so there will probably be, IMO, a lot of alternating between 2 man and 3 man mechanics/crews next year.

Fees are at 80% of the normal 2 man varsity rate, but playoffs next year will continue to remain 2 man.

I'm looking forward to it and it's certainly long overdue!

AremRed Sun May 10, 2015 10:30pm

Regular season 3-person but post-season 2-person? That won't last long.

OrStBballRef Sun May 10, 2015 10:41pm

Agreed....and I'm wondering if the reason for that is some of the smaller associations won't have the experience/numbers to run 3 man a ton and they don't want their first experience in 3 man to be in the tournaments.

AremRed Mon May 11, 2015 01:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrStBballRef (Post 962043)
Agreed....and I'm wondering if the reason for that is some of the smaller associations won't have the experience/numbers to run 3 man a ton and they don't want their first experience in 3 man to be in the tournaments.

As someone who has firsthand experience screwing up in my first 3-person game, I understand the feeling. :D

Camron Rust Mon May 11, 2015 11:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrStBballRef (Post 962043)
Agreed....and I'm wondering if the reason for that is some of the smaller associations won't have the experience/numbers to run 3 man a ton and they don't want their first experience in 3 man to be in the tournaments.

Part of that, as I've been told, is that the coaches want to know exactly what they'll be getting at the tournament and to be properly prepared for it. There was one coach that want's his league to do whatever the state does for post-season. He doesn't care either way, just that it matches.

His motivation was that he doesn't want the change in officials to alter the balance between the teams....that it will make some "illegal" plays more or less likely to be caught against him or his opponents. Some coaches design plays to set marginal screens away from the officials knowing they will not likely be caught in 2-person. With 3-person, he'll have to take some of those out of his playbook for league play and his team will not be comfortable with running them in the playoffs where the other team, whose league may have used to 2 person, may have such plays.

Pantherdreams Mon May 11, 2015 12:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 962084)
Part of that, as I've been told, is that the coaches want to know exactly what they'll be getting at the tournament and to be properly prepared for it. There was one coach that want's his league to do whatever the state does for post-season. He doesn't care either way, just that it matches.

His motivation was that he doesn't want the change in officials to alter the balance between the teams....that it will make some "illegal" plays more or less likely to be caught against him or his opponents. Some coaches design plays to set marginal screens away from the officials knowing they will not likely be caught in 2-person. With 3-person, he'll have to take some of those out of his playbook for league play and his team will not be comfortable with running them in the playoffs where the other team, whose league may have used to 2 person, may have such plays.

A big worry when I'm doing 2-man (which I do a lot) is that we're going to get a competitive matchup up high with the ball and a competitive matchup in the strong side post while some kid is going to lose teeth or get concussed on a bad stagger or flare screen somewhere high or in the deep corner on the weakside. That my crew is just going to miss.

Freddy Mon May 11, 2015 01:17pm

Transition from Two- to Three-
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 962084)
...marginal screens.... With 3-person, he'll have to take some of those out of his playbook for league play...

Will your local associations step up to provide the necessary training in 3-person mechanics so that you don't end up with nothing more than three voracious ballwatchers on each crew?
Some veterans in some areas have been doing 3-person since the switch years ago, but due either to a lack of training or because of their resistance to plug into the training offered, they're still totally clueless regarding PCA's, coverages, secondaries, etc. There's still, as made fun of below, six eyes on the ball at all times.
It's the bane of all officiating, in my opinion. Which is correct.
I wish you and your local associations the best in this regard.
Any resources needed, PM me. We've got quite a collection from all over.

JRutledge Mon May 11, 2015 01:49pm

So let me get this straight. The state controlled how many officials had on regular season games?

Peace

BillyMac Mon May 11, 2015 04:33pm

It's Not Only About The Money ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 962084)
... that it will make some "illegal" plays more or less likely to be caught against him or his opponents. Some coaches design plays to set marginal screens away from the officials knowing they will not likely be caught in 2-person. With 3-person, he'll have to take some of those out of his playbook for league play ...

This is a big part of why 99% of the scholastic games in my little corner of Connecticut are two person games. Our most successful, veteran, coaches are very defensively oriented; in your face man to man defense, full court defense, half court traps, etc. These coaches are also the leaders of the state coaches organization, an organization that holds a lot of power over the state athletic governing body, especially in the sport of basketball.

As long as these veteran coaches keep coaching, and keep winning, we won't see an increase in three person games. It's not quite as bad in other parts of Connecticut, but, as a state, we're still stuck in the twentieth century, and way behind the rest of the country.

Rich Mon May 11, 2015 05:46pm

The tail wagging the dog.

Schools and conferences need to step up and provide some leadership and not let their coaches dictate practice.

Camron Rust Mon May 11, 2015 06:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 962104)
So let me get this straight. The state controlled how many officials had on regular season games?

Peace

Why wouldn't they? They regulate scholastic events. It is their charter to specify/approve all parts of how the games are run.

rockyroad Mon May 11, 2015 07:47pm

As I understand things, the OSAA has "certified" several camps as official training camps for the new 3person mechanics. I know the camp at Oregon State has been certified in such a manner. So the State is making steps to train officials. Whether the officials take advantage of those training opportunities remains to be seen.

Camron Rust Mon May 11, 2015 08:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 962144)
As I understand things, the OSAA has "certified" several camps as official training camps for the new 3person mechanics. I know the camp at Oregon State has been certified in such a manner. So the State is making steps to train officials. Whether the officials take advantage of those training opportunities remains to be seen.

That is correct. Both camps I help at will be covering 3-person. Most of the officials running one of them actually have substantial 3-person experience.

I'm sure there will be several who do not make use of them. Hopefully, there will be some minimum requirement before we start putting people out there. I'm also hoping, that, initially, the assignor when assigning 3, will put a crew out there with a strong 3-person crew chief, a 2nd with some experience, and a 3rd that may be a rookie. No need to have 3 vererans on one game and 3 rookies on another.

TimTaylor Mon May 11, 2015 08:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 962147)
That is correct. Both camps I help at will be covering 3-person. Most of the officials running one of them actually have substantial 3-person experience.

I'm sure there will be several who do not make use of them. Hopefully, there will be some minimum requirement before we start putting people out there. I'm also hoping, that, initially, the assignor when assigning 3, will put a crew out there with a strong 3-person crew chief, a 2nd with some experience, and a 3rd that may be a rookie. No need to have 3 vererans on one game and 3 rookies on another.

Cam,

Glad to see this finally went through - it remains to be seen how many leagues will actually adopt it.......could be a big mess for the commissioners until it all settles out though....

I thought Jack's email said the rate was 85%.....it also said that OAOA would be developing training in accordance with NFHS 3 man mechanics.

Camron Rust Mon May 11, 2015 09:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimTaylor (Post 962148)
Cam,

Glad to see this finally went through - it remains to be seen how many leagues will actually adopt it.......could be a big mess for the commissioners until it all settles out though....

I thought Jack's email said the rate was 85%.....it also said that OAOA would be developing training in accordance with NFHS 3 man mechanics.

Yes, the rate is 85% of the 2 person rate. The OAOA works with the camps to have the appropriate training as is required for post season eligibility. They will probably also incorporate it into their other clinics.

Rich Tue May 12, 2015 06:08am

The key thing is to expect some growing pains with it. The temptation is to give up after a year or two, especially if there's a high profile mistake or issue.

Eventually leagues will start wondering what they would do if only 2 officials show up.

The state, IMO, is making a mistake. You start year one by using 3 in your most high-profile events and use people you are confident won't screw up.

Even in Wisconsin there are still conferences hiring 2 and mine will only use 3 full-time starting next year (although I allowed crews to split 2 checks this past year with no permission required). The state has been using 3 at the state tournaments since 2008 and through the entire postseason for 3 years now.

rockyroad Tue May 12, 2015 11:02am

Rich...When Washington went to 3-person mechanics, they implemented it at the State level the first year. All State tournament games were 3, and you had to be certified by the WOA in 3-person mechanics in order to work those games. The local associations were free to assign 2 or 3 to their games during the season. After 2 (I think) years, all Varsity level games had to be 3-person games. It worked well for our State to start at the top and work down.

Camron Rust Tue May 12, 2015 11:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 962164)
The key thing is to expect some growing pains with it. The temptation is to give up after a year or two, especially if there's a high profile mistake or issue.

There were a couple of high profile mistakes (one discussed in this forum) that were probably the catalyst for moving forward now. 3-person had been under discussion but the transition was more like 2-3 years away, then it happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 962164)
The state, IMO, is making a mistake. You start year one by using 3 in your most high-profile events and use people you are confident won't screw up.

It may well be use in one of the highest profile events in the state...a mid-season tournament with several nationally ranked teams and only top officials, most of which are comfortable in 3-person.

I suspect it will be at the state tournaments very soon.

My guess, is that mostly only our top classifications will elect to use it this year (6A and maybe 5A) and the smaller classes will generally not. If we had to provide it for all varsity games, we don't have enough officials to do that unless the schools change the way they schedule games.


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