Act of Shooting
 

A1 is driving for a breakaway layup and is in the act of shooting. Official gives a T to B1. Do you count the basket?

I know we should wait til the bucket is good when giving a T to opposing coach if possible.

Why would you give a T during a live ball? It would need to be intentional or intentional flagrant would it not?

Why couldn't you? You could have a variety of T's live ball (Coach, player taunt, etc.)

Geez .. you are like my wife .. answer a question with a question. B1 cursed at official loud enough half the gym heard it. My question comes with the ball still being in A1's hands.

The act of shooting started prior to the foul, count the basket.

Wait until the basket is made and then call the T, unless the T is on the team with the ball. Problem solved.

There is interpretations precedent for doing just what I suggested.

Peace

Sometimes, getting the correct answer requires more information. That was more than likely why the poster asked more questions.

There's no problem to solve. Once the shooting motion has begun, the basket counts anyway.

I might wait until the shot is in the air, though.

Maybe, but the OP didn't require any more information, and that follow up question was wrong.

True ...but I'm guessing that's probably why the follow up. Correct, once the act of shooting begins, A1 is allowed to continue. It's just that I've seen where newer officials get confused, for some reason, and kick it.

I can guarantee that it could NOT be "intentional flagrant."

You are like my ex-wife, lazily leaving out pertinent information...LOL

What did he leave out that was relevant?

Too funny … although was it really pertinent? The official gave the T immediately on B while A was in the shooting motion.

As I said .. I know you would like to be able to wait til the hoop is scored. I guess it is now for me "wait until the shooting act has started":D

B1 implies the primary defender, so it is not a stretch to ask the question ballgame did (even if he screwed up the terminology). If an official does not know that a basket is good in this situation, then it is not implausible that the official doesn't know the difference between a flagrant foul and a technical foul. Once A1 is in his shooting motion, why would ANY foul by the defense negate the basket?

Good point .. my case book writing needs some work:p

I have always heard to wait for the bucket before you stick a coach or I guess even a player so as not to take away the scoring opportunity.

Once A1 has started his shooting motion, nothing that is called against the defense can negate the made basket. So there is really no harm in whistling the T immediately.

What you are thinking about is a situation where Team A is still dribbling or passing during an uncontested fast break, and anyone on Team B does something to earn a Technical foul. In that case, you would let the play finish, then assess the T.

Awesome .. thanks

2013-14 NFHS Case Book

10.4.1 SITUATION F: A1 is driving toward the basket for an apparent goal when the official, while trailing the play advancing in the direction in which the ball is being advanced, is cursed by the head coach or bench personnel of Team B. How should the official handle this situation?

RULING: The official shall withhold blowing the whistle until A1 has either made or missed the shot. The official shall then sound the whistle and assess the Team B coach or bench personnel with a technical foul.

Is it fair to assume you would not allow the quick put back by A2 to score since the Ruling says "A1"? Or would you make some allowance for a quick rebound??

If there are no B players in the vicinity, I might allow the put back, but it could be persuasively argued that one free shot is enough in this case. If B misses the gimme, that's on them.

If there are any defenders in the area, I'm not allowing a rebound and I'm going to hit the whistle once the shot is in the air.

The intent of the Case Book RULING is to allow the immediate play to be completed. With that in mind, once the initial shot is "either made or missed" the whistle is to be sounded, and the T assessed. A successful shot, or a rebound secured by any player marks the end of that immediate play.
If the Team A player is unable to make the shot, oh well, we gave him/her the opportunity to complete the play . . .

The RULING is similar to a play in which a player from B steps OOB, when A1 is about to attempt an uncontested shot, as noted in CASE Book 9.3.3 Situation D, in hopes that the official will whistle the play dead, before the shot is taken.

I agree with this from the get go. I notice the "once the shot is in the air". I can see where my "confusion" set in now. I have never heard .. "I am going to wait until the act of shooting has begun to whistle the T"

My simple point is to wait until the basket is completed just like the casebook states. Then you do not have to worry about if the basket counts or not. That is if of course you are thinking on your feet.

Peace

Per the language contained in the definition of continuous motion, it only applies to an opposing PLAYER committing a foul, not a coach or member of bench personnel. That is the reason for the withheld whistle in the Case Book play. If the technical foul is earned by a player on the court, it should be whistled immediately and the try counts if the act of shooting had begun.

Did a men's league game last month where a player mouthed off to me when the opposing team was starting to fast break. I waited about 5 seconds until the other team scored, then called the tech. Two points for the layup, two shots, and the ball. Boom.

Well done!

You unfairly excessively punished this act. The withheld whistle is only for bench personnel and coaches, not players.

10.4.1 SITUATION F: A1 is driving toward the basket for an apparent goal when the official, while trailing the play advancing in the direction in which the ball is being advanced, is cursed by the head coach or bench personnel of Team B. How should the official handle this situation? RULING: The official shall withhold blow- ing the whistle until A1 has either made or missed the shot. The official shall then sound the whistle and assess the Team B head coach or bench personnel with a technical foul. If the official judges the act to be flagrant, the offender shall be ejected. If A’s coach or bench personnel was the offender, the whistle shall be sounded immediately when the unsporting act occurs. (10-4-1a)

That case does not necessarily support your conclusion.

It gives an example of how to handle a situation where the offense is committed by a coach or bench personnel. However, it does not preclude handling players in the same manner. It is silent on that point. It could even be interpreted to be the opposite of your conclusion in the name of consistency.

The following play ruling is very clear and the one that I posted above is the only specific exception of which I am aware.

6.7 SITUATION C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap? RULING: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be either personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

Nowhere does this specify a player: the fact that it just says "defense" implies, to many of us, that it would apply to a coach from the defensive team as well.

It's certainly arguable, but it's far from "clear."

I know, that's why I did it. :cool:

If he called it earlier would he have been providing the defense with an advantage not intended by rule?

I agree with Nevada on this one. If A1 is dribbling down the court then I blow the whistle when it happens. If A1 is very close to beginning a shooting motion I would delay. This applies to on court players only. I will always delay and see the play through if its from the bench.

And I don't agrse that you are giving the defense an advantage not intended by rule because they get two shots and the ball to make up for it. Advantage offense.

Uh, that was my point. You have quoted the wrong case play. The continuous motion rule applies to all defensive fouls whether personal or technical. That ruling clearly states that the ball becomes dead unless the act of shooting has already begun.

Yet, why would there be a case that applies to anyone which says to wait until after the shot when there is an obvious scoring opportunity for the other team? Why do we penalize a team more harshly for an infraction by bench personnel than a player who commits the same infraction?

Yeah, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying the continuous motion exception only applied on a foul committed by a player, and not a technical committed by someone on the bench.

Actually, that is true too.