Camp Question

[blue3]

Here's the situation and then please give me your comments as to whether you think this is acceptable. Please keep in mind that each of our officials are considered to be an independent contractor. I don't know if that matters or not, but just wanted to mention it.

There is a tryout camp in our area run by a college official in April that our high school chapter uses to promote guys and girls from JV to Varsity. They must attend this camp to be considered for promotion. The camp is actually an AAU Tournament that pays him a boat load of money. The officials get zip. There are also a few other NCAA D-II and D-III officials on hand to critique varsity officials wanting to get better.

So, what are your opinions? I do realize that there is some benefit to be gained, however, in some cases he is asking that some officials work both days, Saturday and Sunday and perhaps, work up to four games each day, if they are able.

Is this really a camp or a revenue maker for the tournament director?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by blue3

Here's the situation and then please give me your comments as to whether you think this is acceptable. Please keep in mind that each of our officials are considered to be an independent contractor. I don't know if that matters or not, but just wanted to mention it.

There is a tryout camp in our area run by a college official in April that our high school chapter uses to promote guys and girls from JV to Varsity. They must attend this camp to be considered for promotion. The camp is actually an AAU Tournament that pays him a boat load of money. The officials get zip. There are also a few other NCAA D-II and D-III officials on hand to critique varsity officials wanting to get better.

So, what are your opinions? I do realize that there is some benefit to be gained, however, in some cases he is asking that some officials work both days, Saturday and Sunday and perhaps, work up to four games each day, if they are able.

Is this really a camp or a revenue maker for the tournament director?

Yes.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Rich

Yes.

Indeed. It is what it is. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money in this business. It's no different in college camps. Basically you yield your game fees to the camp staff in exchange for an opportunity. It's that simple.

[Rich]

I've been on both sides of the camp equation.

I still try to go to one "hardcore" teaching camp every year. I'm not that good and I can learn one or two things to take into the next season.

No real interest in trying out for anything, but that doesn't mean I don't get something out of people observing me and trying to make me better.

[Multiple Sports]

Welcome to the camp business....you have the option to say no. However, you seem to make a point that you aren't getting paid. One could ask...are you only in it for the $$$$$. If so, why does the supervisor want to use you ??? I have assigned
another sport for 18 years...guys in it for the $$$$ bother me.

If you don't like "the game", don't go but I guarantee you there are guys who will go, have a great attitude and "pass" you in the eyes of the supervisor...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Welcome to the camp business....you have the option to say no. However, you seem to make a point that you aren't getting paid. One could ask...are you only in it for the $$$$$. If so, why does the supervisor want to use you ??? I have assigned
another sport for 18 years...guys in it for the $$$$ bother me.

If you don't like "the game", don't go but I guarantee you there are guys who will go, have a great attitude and "pass" you in the eyes of the supervisor...

Why can camp directors and supervisors be in it for the $$$$, but an official gets judged negatively if he puts $$$$ first.

College camps are a money maker first, find officials second, for college supervisors. The HS camp in question seems to be money maker first, second, third, advancing officials forth.

[blue3]

It's not about the money, but I just added that to make the question more understandable, which I guess that I didn't. I have been officiating at the High school level for 38 years and at the college level for 22 years. Obviously, we must attend and pay our way to an NCAA camp. What I was referring to was a high school camp run by a college assignor that brings in maybe 3-4 D-II and D-III observers to help improve those that go for improvement, but also the H.S. Chapter uses the camp as a way of moving people up to Varsity. The issue that I have is that last year, I decided to go and be one of the observers at the request of the camp supervisor. At the beginning of the camp, he told us (clinicians) to only correct what we saw any of the officials doing wrong. Not to spend a lot of time on trying to show the officials a better way to improve their rotations and so on. Personally, I felt the whole thing was a hoax and to make it look like they campers were getting something out of it when probably they left not knowing any more than they did when they got there.

He kept telling the clinicians not to hold up the games. "We have almost 400 games to get in these next two days, so we can't be pandering these high school guys."

I know he made a lot of money from this camp, but the campers received very little in return for their time. It is guys like this that give camps a bad name. That was my point. I just didn't stress it properly.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Welcome to the camp business....you have the option to say no. However, you seem to make a point that you aren't getting paid. One could ask...are you only in it for the $$$$$. If so, why does the supervisor want to use you ??? I have assigned
another sport for 18 years...guys in it for the $$$$ bother me.

If you don't like "the game", don't go but I guarantee you there are guys who will go, have a great attitude and "pass" you in the eyes of the supervisor...

What a bunch of hogwash. No one should work for free, even if you love something. In the end everyone should get something of value out of the exchange. Like BNR said, why can everyone else be in it for the money, but the official has to work for free?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by blue3

...

He kept telling the clinicians not to hold up the games. "We have almost 400 games to get in these next two days, so we can't be pandering these high school guys."
...

This quote right here shows that improving officiating on the local HS scene was very low on the priority list. That camp director is getting paid to provide officials, and probably the only money he expended was for some food and drinks and maybe some travel expenses for his observers.

If you ever talk to NBA guys, they will tell you they hate the college camp business. Ed T. Rush was trying to change that mindset when he was supervising the PAC 12. Too bad he lost his job before he could really make an imprint.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

This quote right here shows that improving officiating on the local HS scene was very low on the priority list. That camp director is getting paid to provide officials, and probably the only money he expended was for some food and drinks and maybe some travel expenses for his observers.

If you ever talk to NBA guys, they will tell you they hate the college camp business. Ed T. Rush was trying to change that mindset when he was supervising the PAC 12. Too bad he lost his job before he could really make an imprint.

Unfortunately it seems that the cost of camps is only continuing to increase. The model seems to have started with basketball but is quickly moving into football and baseball.

I'm not in this for the money, but I'm not happy to go pay money to work 15 games for someone that is clearly in it for the money. When I chose camps to attend, I consider the cost, location, likelihood of getting picked up, and value of the instruction. Understanding your own personal goals will help you decide which camps to attend. Alternative options are also important. If this is the only high school assignor in the area (and high school basketball is important to you), your hands are tied. If there are several groups, no way would I attend this camp.

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Welcome to the camp business....you have the option to say no. However, you seem to make a point that you aren't getting paid. One could ask...are you only in it for the $$$$$. If so, why does the supervisor want to use you ??? I have assigned
another sport for 18 years...guys in it for the $$$$ bother me.

If you don't like "the game", don't go but I guarantee you there are guys who will go, have a great attitude and "pass" you in the eyes of the supervisor...

As others have said, only supervisors are allowed to be in it "for the $$$", apparently.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by deecee

What a bunch of hogwash. No one should work for free, even if you love something. In the end everyone should get something of value out of the exchange. Like BNR said, why can everyone else be in it for the money, but the official has to work for free?

I am a clinician at 2-3 HS clinics every year. The most expensive is $100 for someone to attend. One association I belong to provides a free clinic to its members and it's approved by the state -- I taught the classroom portion this past year. And I will admit that I wish it was a better on-court experience, one which a more formal camp with some kind of "skin in the game" would supply.

I'm not sure why having someone pay to receive instruction is a terrible thing, though -- it's a question of how much instruction, IMO, and how much pay. When I'm a clinician, I take my duties seriously -- I'm usually on a court for at least 6 hours watching crews, taking notes, giving feedback, trying to get people better.

Have I been compensated to do this? Yes, but it's not ever been that much money that I'd consider it more than covering my expenses.

Have I hired people out of these camps now that I'm an assigner? Yes, I have. These are younger people who are motivated to get better, for the most part, and they would not have been on my radar otherwise.

If you're arguing that paying over $300 for a HS camp is out of line, I guess you'd have to decide for yourself if the level of instruction and the camp experience is worth that kind of money. There's exactly one camp I know of that meets that criteria for me, and I've been 3 times. It's not a tryout camp -- it's a HS camp -- and I've been very happy with what I've taken away from it.

[deecee]

Rich,

Did you see what my response was to? It has nothing to do with not having to pay for camps.

Which I spend $300-$400 on just one camp.

[Multiple Sports]

Would you share what state this is in.....

[Rich]

Originally Posted by deecee

Rich,

Did you see what my response was to? It has nothing to do with not having to pay for camps.

Which I spend $300-$400 on just one camp.

Well, it sounds like they get a shot at working varsity ball. Each official has to decide if that's what he/she wants.

I was asked to go to a camp to work a HS conference once. I declined. Paying $200 for the privilege of working 2-3 games a season just doesn't seem worth it, not when I can work for 10+ other assigners.

Where there is only one assigner, the official may not have a choice.