Cincinnati vs Kentucky Contact Dead Ball Technical Foul (Video)
 

Regarding an earlier discussion on the merits that the exact same standards of a(n) intentional/flagrant technical foul (dead ball contact) must mean the exact physical requirements for a(n) intentional/flagrant personal foul (live ball contact)...



Cincinnati vs UK

Contact dead ball T...perfect example of contact that would be a common foul during live ball play....but called a T during a dead ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL976eQ6juQ

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It was starting to get chirpy, and I think this was a good T to settle everyone down.

Why did Ellis (Cin) get away with all that instigating? What Harrison (Ken) did isn't right, but how can the officials ignore the fact that Ellis was the root of the problem (at least here, as I don't know what happened before this sequence)?

Officials should have had a quick trigger on Ellis, IMO. He had just been tossed from the previous game for a FF2.

Agreed. The Cincy player was the troublemaker here and got away with a lot of instigating.

This is a great example of how "talking" to the players doesn't always work. We (including myself here) think we can talk to players and get things settled down in these types of situations. Most of the time that works great...but when dealing with known knuckleheads, maybe talking isn't the best way to handle things. If Ellis gets a DB Contact T in the first play, the second probably never happens.

Ellis is some of the most problematic baggage I've seen a coach have to deal with in a long time. To be humbled by the FF2 he had 2 days before and then come back as if nothing had happened....and act with the same shenanigans? Holy smokes.

Tells me he may not have really been as "humbled" as he tried to appear.

shades of Dennis Rodman come to mind.

Following the first personal foul the Kentucky player took a swipe at the Cinci player. The Cinci player was no angel, but that action by the Kentucky player meets the definition of a Class A unsporting technical foul. I would penalize him right then. I don't see the actions of anything else in this clip rising to that level. I do not agree with the technical foul that was eventually assessed to the Kentucky player following the second personal foul. Ellis of Cinci actually moved to his right to pick off Harrison as he walks by and makes his shoulder bump look worse. I would tell those two to knock it off and keep an eye them for further issues.

Lastly, please compare the language in 10-3-1d with the text of the new 10-3-2i. Curious that one uses "and" and the other "or" when they are basically the same in the rest of the rule. Why the difference for players versus bench personnnel?

And if Ellis did the exact same thing later on, would you call a T or tell him to knock it off again? If you would call a T, what would it be for?

No.

Hmm, "no" to 3 different questions. So if he did it again, just ignore it?

I believe that you are confused. Ellis didn't get T'd for anything during the game. I have stated that I would not have T'd him either. I would continue to observe him though in case his antics cross the threshold for an unsporting technical foul. You inquired if I would T him for the exact same thing again later in the game. The answer is no. His action is below the level of a technical foul no matter how many times he does it. He simply has my attention for the rest of the game so that I don't miss something that he does which does warrant a T.

Apparently, you would have T'd Ellis during this contest. I don't agree with your assessment.

Never said Ellis got T'd in this game. But he got a FF2 in the game prior, so he's already should be on the crew's radar.

After Lyles gets fouled on the first play, Ellis bumps him quite unnecessarily, then Ellis slaps his hand away. Then on the next play Ellis and Harrison make it a point to bump into each other. Yes, I would put a T on Ellis when Harrison got T'd. I'm not spending all game telling players to "knock it off".

I would have whacked Ellis for the initial BS with Lyles. What would you have done?

I definitely would have strongly considered it.

I wish the Lead hadn't been so quick to leave the scene of that first foul.

I am leaning towards T on the first play. If that's called we avoid the second play altogether. In isolation, the second play is probably nothing. But in context of the game, I would probably go with a double T as both players escalated the situation.

I really don't like the reaction of Ellis after the T is called. That borders on unsporting behavior in my opinion.

In my opinion, Lyles is the only player who does something warranting a technical foul.

I'm assuming for knocking Ellis arm down?

Which of his actions would you deem a FF1 during a live ball?

FYI, the site committee and John Adams apparently agreed with the official who called the DCTF because he will work the next round. :D

I'd be surprised if Ray Natili didn't advance to the next round. This tech isn't controversial like the Ed Cooley one.

What I wrote above.

None of the actions in this clip would warrant an FF1 during live ball play...the closest action would be Ellis's that he initiated after the whilst blew for the first foul.

So Lyles action would be a FF1/Intentional during a live ball?

I know I wouldn't call it as such.

I don't know about Ray Natili moving on but I do know the official who actually did call the TF is moving on.

Two cents: When the T was called I was surprised. When they showed the replay that was just the contact, I was still surprised. But when they showed the replay so that I noticed he walked 15' to get there to initiate the contact, I changed my mind and thought it was a good call -- it was a calculated move, not a "oh I'm right here" move. YMMV.

Who called it? When I was watching live it looked like Natili ended up being C opposite during the FT administration.

That doesn't necessarily mean he called it. Quite possible the calling official stayed tableside to talk to Pitino about the situation.

I know that, just showing my thought process.

Frames at the 00:48 & 00:49 second mark of the Youtube clip should answer your question.

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For those wondering, the official who called the tech was Michael Greenstein.

Still waiting for Nevada to answer this one.

Still wondering Nevada, would any of the actions in the clip alone warrant an FF1/intentional foul for you during live ball play?