Giving Help: GSU/Xavier (Video)

[Raymond]

Do not necessarily need a video posted, but at the 10:31 mark of the 2nd half is a perfect example of why I do not volunteer information on OOB plays that occur in a partner's primary.

A1 drives lane from the C, and gets contested at the lane line near the low block. He attempts to pass the ball and it ends up flying OOB in front of the Lead. The Lead indicates B's ball. The C comes in and provides information and the call is changed to A's ball.

Replay clearly shows that the ball went off A1. Ball initially hits B2's side, but on follow through A1 hits the ball again directly in the line of the Lead's vision.

Now the question. The Lead followed the proper etiquette we all been taught that if a partner provides information, change the call. So in the last minute of a closely contested HS game (NCAA would have a monitor review), would you, as Lead change, the call per etiquette, or would you explain to the C that you clearly saw the ball go off A1 and stick with the call?

[CNYREF]

Would like the video. I saw this play and the replay I thought it was good info because it went off his side i did not see it hit A1 after tho

[MechanicGuy]

It was a poor overturn. There was nothing about the play that required more information than the lead had. He had by far the best look at the play.

If I saw the ball hit the defenders side, and then saw the offense touch the ball again, I would explain that to my partner and stick with my original call.

[frezer11]

If there is a double tap, and the calling official clearly sees the second tab, then you shouldn't change your call regardless of "etiquette." A secondary official can come in with additional information as to a tap, but they may not see that final glance which gives the ball to the other team. Don't just change the call because of some so called "etiquette," have a discussion and make the correct called based on all of the available information.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by frezer11

If there is a double tap, and the calling official clearly sees the second tab, then you shouldn't change your call regardless of "etiquette." A secondary official can come in with additional information as to a tap, but they may not see that final glance which gives the ball to the other team. Don't just change the call because of some so called "etiquette," have a discussion and make the correct called based on all of the available information.

Agreed. I've left the call the same multiple times, and had my help "refused" based on information *after* what the outside official saw.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by frezer11

If there is a double tap, and the calling official clearly sees the second tab, then you shouldn't change your call regardless of "etiquette." A secondary official can come in with additional information as to a tap, but they may not see that final glance which gives the ball to the other team. Don't just change the call because of some so called "etiquette," have a discussion and make the correct called based on all of the available information.

Amen.

This should always be pre-gamed so it's 100% understood no one is out to hurt anyone else's pride. If I come to you with information and you disagree, that tells me that you had a high-certainty call. I'm perfectly ok with this. Play on.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed. I've left the call the same multiple times, and had my help "refused" based on information *after* what the outside official saw.

I pregame this every game. "If you see a deflection, come to me. I'll change my call unless I saw the deflection plus a second deflection."

Seems to work well and I haven't had any issues when this has occurred in the past. Easy to explain and video supports it.

[APG]

[rockyroad]

When this is pregamed, I always tell my partners that I am not coming in with "help". If they have a question or want information, they can ask and I will come to them - but I do not run in there like that. I also tell them that if I have information, I will step to where we can see each other and give them a nice big smile - they can then ask for my info or not. It's up to him/her.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by jpgc99

I pregame this every game. "If you see a deflection, come to me. I'll change my call unless I saw the deflection plus a second deflection."

Seems to work well and I haven't had any issues when this has occurred in the past. Easy to explain and video supports it.

Agree with this. I have no expectation that the call will be overturned (either as the off official or as the calling official) in a help situation like this. The goal is to get it right. Perfectly acceptable for the officials to discuss briefly and confirm the call.

I doubt the Lead would have overturned the call simply because of etiquette (at least I hope not).

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

When this is pregamed, I always tell my partners that I am not coming in with "help". If they have a question or want information, they can ask and I will come to them - but I do not run in there like that. I also tell them that if I have information, I will step to where we can see each other and give them a nice big smile - they can then ask for my info or not. It's up to him/her.

I'd rather you come in and tell me what you saw rather than standing there staring at me with a goofy grin. If I don't notice you, the perception is that you thought the call was terrible and are laughing about it.

Also, what if we don't change the call? It could give the appearance you know the call is wrong and are happy that we are giving the ball to the wrong team.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

...

I doubt the Lead would have overturned the call simply because of etiquette (at least I hope not).

I'll say this. I work small college ball in ACC country (where you obviously reside also). Jamie Luckie and Lee Cassell are both ACC officials. Jamie Luckie is looked up to by many college officials in these parts.

In many a college pre-game, I have heard the statement, "If you come to me, I'm changing my call". Never any discussion of actually discussing the play. This leads me to believe, somewhere a long time ago, this became an accepted/expected practice in the Carolina/VA/MD area. I'm not saying it's right (because it isn't), just saying what it appears to be down here in ACC country.

I have twice in my career rejected help from a partner. Once in a HS game where a kid got whacked and I went brain dead and didn't blow my whistle. I simply told my partner that if I blow my whistle now to change the call, it will be to call the foul that I missed. It was no big deal, and nobody else in the gym knew what was going on.

The other time in a JuCo game, my partner gave me a look and started to approach me. I shook my head to let him know not to come. I knew I had the call right, and the play happened right in front of me.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by jpgc99

I'd rather you come in and tell me what you saw rather than standing there staring at me with a goofy grin. If I don't notice you, the perception is that you thought the call was terrible and are laughing about it.

Also, what if we don't change the call? It could give the appearance you know the call is wrong and are happy that we are giving the ball to the wrong team.

Don't think I said "goofy" grin...but ok.

And if we ever work, I won't come in. You can ask, but I am not just charging in blowing my whistle multiple times. And if we work together, and you come in blowing your whistle like crazy, I will change the call before you ever get to me. And tell the coach who lost possession that he needs to take it up with you as you are the one who wanted the call changed.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'll say this. I work small college ball in ACC country (where you obviously reside also). Jamie Luckie and Lee Cassell are both ACC officials. Jamie Luckie is looked up to by many college officials in these parts.

In many a college pre-game, I have heard the statement, "If you come to me, I'm changing my call". Never any discussion of actually discussing the play. This leads me to believe, somewhere a long time ago, this became an accepted/expected practice in the Carolina/VA/MD area. I'm not saying it's right (because it isn't), just saying what it appears to be down here in ACC country.

I'm sure you're right ... you would have more insight than I do as to what is common at that level. I do think it's unfortunate if officials at the top level think that way. As I said, I would hope that getting the call right would be most important thing.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

When this is pregamed, I always tell my partners that I am not coming in with "help". If they have a question or want information, they can ask and I will come to them - but I do not run in there like that. I also tell them that if I have information, I will step to where we can see each other and give them a nice big smile - they can then ask for my info or not. It's up to him/her.

This.
And I tell my partner(s) in pre-game, "You will have several calls in this game in which I won't know what you call until you give your on-site signals, because I'll be off-ball."
It's rare that I have info that will be helpful, on an OOB call, only such as a long pass that may come from my area into theirs, with a tip right off the hand of the player in my area.