"Traveling out of bounds" (Video)
 

Did anyone see the play in the Butler - Texas game? The official signaled traveling when the in-bounder went outside of his designated area. I thought the signal for this was just an open hand, then point to the spot. I didn't think traveling was a signal for an out of bounds play. Can someone fill me in?

You are correct about the signal. Unfortunately not enough people know the proper signal and continue to use the wrong signal. Even though it was correctly called, the wrong signal perpetuates various myths regarding what is lor is not legal on throwins.

You are correct. Sometimes, D1 refs get by with sloppy mechanics. Some AAU coach somewhere from my past was watching this and now thinks I was an idiot for calling a T on him for arguing about whether the other team traveled on a throw in.

There is no official signal for an inbounding violation, but some officials incorrectly use the travel signal. I get why they use the travel signal but there is nothing related to traveling that applies to the thrower. I think a better signal is the one Bryan Kersey gives here before he whacks Coach K.

I wouldn't give an AAU coach that much credit.

Fixed that for ya. :D

True enough. :)

It's so disappointing to see guys at the highest level perpetuating this myth. :mad:

Full Agreement ...
 

Bingo. Bingo. Bingo.

Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game

"Don't move”, said to an inbounding player, by an official, before a designated spot throw-in, is another statement that should probably go unsaid. According to the rules, that player can move laterally within a three foot wide area, can jump up, and can move as far back as time, and space, will allow. Better statement: “Designated spot”, while pointing to the spot.

The Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules

A player inbounding the ball may step on, but not over the line. During a designated spot throwin, the player inbounding the ball must keep one foot on or over the three-foot wide designated spot. An inbounding player is allowed to jump or move one or both feet. A player inbounding the ball may move backward as far as the five-second time limit or space allows. If player moves outside the three-foot wide designated spot it is a throwin violation, not traveling. In gymnasiums with limited space outside the sidelines and endlines, a defensive player may be asked to step back no more than three feet. A player inbounding the ball may “dribble” the ball on the out-of-bounds area prior to making a throwin. After a goal, or awarded goal, the team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from any point outside the end line. A team retains this “run the endline” privilege if a timeout is called during the dead ball period after the goal. Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in, or may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate outside the boundary line.

I debate whether he did not have a foot over the 3-foot area...and I despise Texas.

I also thought he kept at least one foot over the 3 foot area at least until the time he called a timeout. Also disagree with the travel mechanic for this sort of violation.

Video Request
 

APG:

Can you pull video of this infraction??

I'm sure he would if you could find the timestamp so he doesn't have to search for it!

It is signal 26 in this version of the chart: http://www.ovyl.org/documents/2013/1...nd-signals.gif

guilty
 

I'll admit I, prior to becoming an official, believed this myth and just thought that was the call when it happened. I recall Kyle Singler from Duke being called for it in a game a few years ago after he started to run the endline on a spot throw. I just thought it was the way it was done. Sometimes we forget, as officials, that most people have no clue what is going on and that is only made worse when high level officials continue to make the mistake of using that mechanic.

While I get that it can perpetuate a myth, to those who know the rules (and believe that the official knows the rules), the signal does communicate exactly what happened . . . just guesing, but it may be that the NCAA refs who have done this believe that the players/coaches do know the rule and will know what was called (and that, for example, it wasn't an overly quick 5 second count)

It doesn't communicate what happened. It's a traveling signal, so it communicates that the player traveled. Those who know the rules know what the official meant by the signal. It's not the worst thing ever, and it's certainly better than the Frankenstein.

Uhh, exactly. If they know what the official means by the signal, that would be, uhh, communication! . . . :cool:

"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

The problem is the vastly higher number of people watching who don't read the rules and assume he called the player for traveling.

I don't doubt that at all -- but I *suspect* the refs on this play care more about communicating with the players and coaches (who will understand what it means) than the AAU wannabes and HS coaches who store their rule books in the round file . . . I'm not advocating for the signal, certainly not at lower levels where people do think travelling rules apply (I saw it called (by "it" I mean travellnig rather than leaving the 3' box) in a CYO Jr High game this year, and I believe the referee who called it was also a HS coach . . .)

I see what you're saying, and don't disagree with regard to their intent and their concerns. I also understand D1 guys get away with some different mechanics sometimes. That said:

The guy making this call on a D1 floor is going to be seen by more people than the guy making it in a MS game in the middle of Denver.

The "Frankenstein" is an approved signal for NCAA-M.

Frankenstein? Is that the one with the arms down showing the player's not vertical?

Personally, I think this is a great signal.

Over The Back ???
 

That one I don't mind, I'm talking about the "over the back" mechanic we see so often.

I call that the creeping death foul.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/n-MLCuKliUk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thanks for the video. So now not only do you have the official signaling travel, you have an announcer telling us "he moved his feet," implying that taking steps was the infraction, perpetuating the myth further.

As my name would suggest, I share your dislike for the shortbushorns, but I initially found myself wondering how far the player actually was from the designated spot. If anyone can successfully argue that he was still on designated spot (see next paragraph as to why I think it was the right call), the incorrect signal is even more egregious because it becomes more difficult to explain to the lay person the rule that the official felt was being violated. It is easy to see that he moved his "pivot" foot in excess of what would be allowed had this not been a throw-in and combined with a travel signal, why would the average fan question this?

Here's my case to support that he had left the designated spot:
1. The distance between the 3 point lines measured along the baseline is 41.5 feet (50 feet of court, 4.25 feet between sideline and 3 point line in the corner on both sides so 50ft - (4.5ft*2) = 41.5 feet).
2. The lettering along the baseline identifies the venue as the Consol Energy Center, which is 18 letters in length. As the lettering appears to start and end the same distance from the 3 point line on both sides, it is likely that a monospaced font was used (also note that it is in all caps making it easier to use a monospaced font in the absence of a lower-case L or a capital I). If we agree a monospaced font was used, then we know all of the letters are the same width.
3. The tricky step is that I don't know the exact distance from the 3 point line that the lettering starts/stops. I do feel relatively certain, however, that the word "ENERGY" falls entirely within the lane lines extended (I'm comfortable with this assumption because it would make the spacing of the word fit easier and have a better feel). Since the lane is 12 feet in width, the letters cannot measure more than 2 feet each in width. As spacing should be consistent between each character of a monospaced font, we can actually excluded calculations for spacing for the purposes of determining how far he actually moved.
4. The initial location of the player when the official handed/tossed the player the ball was at the first "E" in Center. Assuming the designated spot is located at the center point of the "E" (the player had one foot on each side of the point I would call the center of the "E") then 3 feet to either side would be the end of the adjacent letter on either side. There is 1 foot of "E" on each side of the center point and the adjacent letter is 2 feet, thus when the player was standing entirely on the "T" in center before releasing the ball, he would be more than 3 feet away from the designated spot, and thus a violation (but not a travel).

Now that I've gone at great lengths to support this being a violation, I do have a question for everybody else here that could change my opinion of this play. Do you consider the designated spot to be literally as "spot" as I did when supporting this being a violation? Is "spot" really just single point in space or is more like a player sized dot (e.g. in this case the entire area within the players frame is the designated spot and thus no violation as long as he has a foot on or over the area within 3 feet of the entire width of the "E", which in this case would extend half-way across the letter "T")?

Designated spot is three feet wide. Normally, the center of that spot is where the thrower is handed the ball. He only gets to go about 18 inches in either direction, but he also only needs to keep one foot on or over the spot.

Egregious Longhorn fan here... given that a normal stance with legs spread is just shy of 3 feet wide, we should be looking to see if his right foot moved significantly past where his left foot started.

And as much as I don't want to say this... I think it's clear he did.

Let Me Whip Out My Slide Rule ...
 

NFHS 4-42-6: The designated throw-in spot is 3 feet wide with no depth limitation
and is established by the official prior to putting the ball at the thrower’s disposal.
NOTE: The thrower must keep one foot on or over the spot until the ball is released. The
traveling and dribbling rules are not in effect for a throw-in.

Lets' say that the ball is handed, or bounced, to the inbounder, who, for sake of argument, has his feet eighteen inches apart while standing in the center of the three foot wide designated spot. Let's say that he wants to move left. He can move both feet nine inches to the left with no restriction (he's still in that three foot wide spot). Now he has to keep one foot in that spot (let's say he keeps the right foot there) but he still may move the left foot as far as he can without moving the right foot (still in the spot). He can probably take a three foot stride to his left, so in total he has moved about three and a half feet to his left, all legal. As long as he keeps one foot over that three foot wide designated spot, his other feet can move, left to right, legally, in an, almost, seven foot wide area.

Picture a really tall kid in one of the free throw lane spaces. As long as he keeps on foot in that three foot wide lane space, he can probably take one stride left, or right, and almost touch the adjacent lane mark. That's more than nine feet, including the marks themselves. So an average size kid can easily legally "cover" seven feet (left to right), as long as he keeps one foot in that three foot wide area.