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-   -   Arizona vs Colorado Head Coach T (Possible Ejection?) (Video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/99394-arizona-vs-colorado-head-coach-t-possible-ejection-video.html)

Camron Rust Fri Feb 27, 2015 02:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 956336)
In high school there is virtually NO accountability for officials who T/eject people - u can pretty much do what u want and there won't be any consequence (ask yourself this: "when was the last time you heard of ANY official losing games/being removed from a conference for on-court decisions/judgement?").
I know of a few. There is a lot more accountability than you might think. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. One poor call isn't going to cost an official but a pattern will. No assignor wants to keep getting calls about the same official every night.

Welpe Fri Feb 27, 2015 02:37pm
I'd send a coach in a HS game for doing that. That's just too far over the top to "manage" away. And we have to answer to both our assigner and the state for ejections. There's plenty of accountability here.

ballgame99 Fri Feb 27, 2015 03:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 956302)
You've COMPLETELY missed what the Colorado HC was doing...he's yelling at the officials: "DON'T QUIT" because he felt they weren't calling fouls based on the officials view that the game was over (20pt lead w/ roughly 1:30 left in the game).
....
You're right, on second viewing that is definitely what he is doing.

crosscountry55 Fri Feb 27, 2015 04:16pm
Yeah, this is a frustrated coach at the end of a frustrating 5-10 conference season. Perhaps his job is on the line. That's how this guy makes a living. So I'm sensitive to that.

No call? Probably. The coach was itching to find something to voice his opinion about before the game ended and I think he picked the wrong play. Kind of like when you're short stacked in poker, the blinds are getting bigger and bigger, and you have to decide the right hand to go all-in on; sometimes you don't have the cards you'd prefer, but you just go with it.

So....putting all of this in context, combined with the fact that all he's really guilty of is coaching the officials to "not quit" (I don't think any magic words were used), I think the one technical here is fine. It was certainly needed and warranted. A second one? Nope.

TriggerMN Fri Feb 27, 2015 04:18pm
"Don't quit!"

Heh, this reminded me of Jim Valvano's ESPY speech, and his famous line, "Don't give up. Don't ever give up," which was famously misquoted by Emmitt Smith as, "Don't quit. Don't even quit.":D

APG Fri Feb 27, 2015 04:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 956359)

So....putting all of this in context, combined with the fact that all he's really guilty of is coaching the officials to "not quit" (I don't think any magic words were used), I think the one technical here is fine. It was certainly needed and warranted. A second one? Nope.
Let me ask....you eject the coach...is the coach gonna try and seriously argue that he shouldn't be tossed? if so, what arguement is he going to give? The coach knows what he's doing here...and he wouldn't be surprised if he got tossed.

The coach certainly does more than just "coaching the officials." The coach is out of his box and on the floor to start with. The coach gets whacked...then gives THREE overt gestures directly toward an official...two toward the new trail and one toward the slot who called the original T. Short of your bosses giving direction otherwise...this particular (IMO) ejection should be as easy as it comes.

Adam Fri Feb 27, 2015 05:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 956359)
Yeah, this is a frustrated coach at the end of a frustrating 5-10 conference season. Perhaps his job is on the line. That's how this guy makes a living. So I'm sensitive to that.

No call? Probably. The coach was itching to find something to voice his opinion about before the game ended and I think he picked the wrong play. Kind of like when you're short stacked in poker, the blinds are getting bigger and bigger, and you have to decide the right hand to go all-in on; sometimes you don't have the cards you'd prefer, but you just go with it.

So....putting all of this in context, combined with the fact that all he's really guilty of is coaching the officials to "not quit" (I don't think any magic words were used), I think the one technical here is fine. It was certainly needed and warranted. A second one? Nope.
It's not the words. For me, he's got his 2nd T before he's sitting on the bench saying "don't quit."

The_Rookie Fri Feb 27, 2015 07:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 956336)
In high school there is virtually NO accountability for officials who T/eject people - u can pretty much do what u want and there won't be any consequence (ask yourself this: "when was the last time you heard of ANY official losing games/being removed from a conference for on-court decisions/judgement?").
NONSENSE! If you toss a coach or player they automatically are suspended for the next game in my part of the world! And you can bet the house not only will you have a conversation with the assignor but someone from the State Federation Too! They have your back when the facts are on the officials side but if they are not..well you could be redlined from future assignments

Adam Fri Feb 27, 2015 08:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 956336)
In high school there is virtually NO accountability for officials who T/eject people - u can pretty much do what u want and there won't be any consequence (ask yourself this: "when was the last time you heard of ANY official losing games/being removed from a conference for on-court decisions/judgement?").
How much high school did you actually work before moving on?

twocentsworth Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG (Post 956361)
Let me ask....you eject the coach...is the coach gonna try and seriously argue that he shouldn't be tossed? if so, what arguement is he going to give?
The coach will simply submit a series of plays - including the "no call" that precipitated this incident - to the league assignor and simply say....

"Here are X number of plays that should have been called fouls and weren't simply because the officials "quit" officiating the game. Then, when I get on them about their inexcusable behavior they throw me out because THEY'RE the ones not doing their job!! I should have gotten one T...but they threw me out because they knew they were wrong. The players don't deserve this and the PAC-12 shouldn't stand for this either".

This exact scenario happens more often than you might think....

twocentsworth Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 956348)
I know of a few. There is a lot more accountability than you might think. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. One poor call isn't going to cost an official but a pattern will. No assignor wants to keep getting calls about the same official every night.
At a very basic level, an assignor needs a "guy w/ a pulse and a striped shirt". Why else to you think they throw a "fit" when an official tries to get off of a game on a Tue. or Fri. night? 'Cause they don't have very many good officials to use as replacements.

Here's the perfect example of what I mean. HS game this year...after 2 visiting subs enter the game, the Lead official administers the ball before both players could leave the floor. The visiting coach gets the Trails attention to stop the game so the player can get off the floor...and in a normal tone tells the Lead: "Sir, can you please wait to administer the ball so that the players get properly get off the floor?"...TWEEEEET!!!!!...(you guessed it) - visiting coach gets a T. When brought to the assignors attention, who do you think he supported...the Lead (who was completely in the wrong) or the Coach who had a valid complaint? (My jaw practically hit the floor when I witnessed it).

My point is, unless it's a rule that gets kicked (which happens to state final officials as well as rookies), officials rarely get in trouble w/ HS assignors.

bballref3966 Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 956337)
Fiasco? What fiasco?

The coach wanted to get a T, got the T, and continues to complain to make sure he gets his point across. That does NOT a fiasco make.

One of the officials has GOT to get to him and talk to him - let him vent ("Coach, I understand you're upset. I'm right here...you don't have to yell. I hear what you're saying...nobody is quitting on this game. The Lead simply didn't think it was a foul...nothing more. Nothing less. Let's finish the game and not make this any worse than it is" (or something to that effect).

Coaches in this situation will continue their rant until they feel that they're being heard - that's really all they want...to get their point across to the officials.

The officials MUST be the calmest people in the arena. If they emotionally react to a situation like this, then they are not able to understand what is happening and understand how to handle/resolve it. One can certainly issue another T and pitch the coach....but I submit to you that it will cause more problems than it is worth (needless to say that an official who does this probably does not have the "people skills"/game management skills that other officials have who have advanced to higher basketball levels).

In my experience, officials at higher levels talk more/first before issuing a T than officials at lower levels. I don't think that is an accident.
You are more weary than any other official I've ever met when it comes to calling a second T. Seemingly every time you post, you list a bunch of reasons why not to call a second T. A T and an emotional reaction are more often than not, mutually exclusive. Our duties allow and require us to penalize unsportsmanlike behavior. Just because I call the second T on a coach doesn't mean I reacted emotionally. Instead of faulting the officials for "reacting emotionally," how about faulting the coach for poor behavior?

Nowhere in our duties does it say we have to "baby" the coach. He is an adult. If he doesn't want to act like it, it's not our job to make him.

You mention that a lot of the officials that advance are the ones that have great "people skills." Since when does calling a T mean an official isn't good with people. If you are so concerned about coddling coaches and not making them angry that you refuse to call a T, you are not going to get very far, either.

I have assigners that would look at this video and would wholeheartedly support a second T.

AremRed Sat Feb 28, 2015 02:01am
We're not here to decide whether the coach needs to stay or go....if he commits another unsporting offense after your partner whacked him then be a good partner and finish the job. And if the coach is asking for it or wants to get toss then oblige him. No need to make him sit and suffer, that shouldn't be an option.

Rich Sat Feb 28, 2015 02:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 956397)
The coach will simply submit a series of plays - including the "no call" that precipitated this incident - to the league assignor and simply say....

"Here are X number of plays that should have been called fouls and weren't simply because the officials "quit" officiating the game. Then, when I get on them about their inexcusable behavior they throw me out because THEY'RE the ones not doing their job!! I should have gotten one T...but they threw me out because they knew they were wrong. The players don't deserve this and the PAC-12 shouldn't stand for this either".

This exact scenario happens more often than you might think....
The assigners must be idiots, then.

I'm just a little ole HS assignor and I would applaud my officials for sending that coach on his way.

Too many assigners are more worried about keeping their job than doing their job...which doesn't mean always doing what's popular with the coaches.

zm1283 Sun Mar 01, 2015 06:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG (Post 956339)
I feel confident in saying this coach would be tossed in an NBA game...by officials at the highest level.

Then again, a coach at that level wouldn't do this unless he was looking to be tossed...and would be expecting it...that's a disportionate response to the play at hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 956340)
I'm getting his second at about the 25 second mark of the video.

He knows he was heard after he got the T. He got a few seconds to yell at the lead, then went back to the guy who gave him his T.
That's when he gets the second.
Ditto to these two posts. I've had one ejection in a HS game and it wasn't as demonstrative as this. Our assigner would back anyone in our association if they ejected here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 956398)
At a very basic level, an assignor needs a "guy w/ a pulse and a striped shirt". Why else to you think they throw a "fit" when an official tries to get off of a game on a Tue. or Fri. night? 'Cause they don't have very many good officials to use as replacements.

Here's the perfect example of what I mean. HS game this year...after 2 visiting subs enter the game, the Lead official administers the ball before both players could leave the floor. The visiting coach gets the Trails attention to stop the game so the player can get off the floor...and in a normal tone tells the Lead: "Sir, can you please wait to administer the ball so that the players get properly get off the floor?"...TWEEEEET!!!!!...(you guessed it) - visiting coach gets a T. When brought to the assignors attention, who do you think he supported...the Lead (who was completely in the wrong) or the Coach who had a valid complaint? (My jaw practically hit the floor when I witnessed it).

My point is, unless it's a rule that gets kicked (which happens to state final officials as well as rookies), officials rarely get in trouble w/ HS assignors.
I think you make some good points here, especially the bolded sentence. I just don't think it applies to this video or an official ejecting this coach if it happened in a HS game.


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