Backcourt violation?
 

1) A1 is dribbling in BC under heavy pressure. B2 slaps the ball away from A1. The ball goes towards Team A's FC, rebounds off the shin of A3 who is in the FC, and continues to the BC where A1 retrieves the ball.

BC Violation?

2) Same scenario except ball rebounds of shin of referee.

BC violation?

1 is a violation.

2 is not.

Backcourt violation criteria:

1. A has Team control
2. Ball gains frontcourt status
3. A was the last to have touched the ball when it returned to the backcourt (note that it doesn't matter where A touched it)
4. A is the first to touch the ball after the ball returned to the backcourt (note that it doesn't matter where A touches it)

If all 4 are true, it is a violation. If any one is not true, it is not a violation.

1. Yes
2. No

Simply look at which team was last to touch before the ball returned to the backcourt.

The OP and the examples given are very good this morning. I cannot remember having such a play in all of my years of officiating and I really had to take a moment and think about it. These are the kind of bang, bang plays that we see especially at the JrHS level.

When I was the Rules Interpreter for the WCBOA I was known for presenting outlandish Third World plays to get my members thinking and applying Rule 4, and this is a good play for making one think.

Keep up the good work you young whippersnappers. :D

MTD, Sr.

Just for completeness...
 

3) A1's pass from the backcourt hits the official in the frontcourt and rebounds back to A1 (still in the backcourt), who is the first to touch the ball.

The referee is treated no differently than the floor at that spot. And since the ball has to touch a player from team A in order to get FC status, then no violation.

Not true.

Care to expand on that?

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

4-4-2,3,4:

A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the
frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last
in contact with a player or the court.

A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball
touching the floor at that individual’s location.

Also:

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control
when coming from a throw-in); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must
be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after
the ball has been in the backcourt.

So, if I'm in the backcourt, holding the ball, having not yet not yet starting a dribble, and I throw the ball into the frontcourt, and backspin the ball in such a way that it bounces in the frontcourt and comes back to me, while I'm still in the backcourt, and I catch it, that's legal? That smells "fishy" to me, and it's not just in the state of Denmark.

Where do you get that requirement?

4-4-2
"A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt."
4-4-3
"A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court."

Then there's 9-9-2
"While in player and team control in its backcourt, a player shall not cause the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt, without the ball touching a player in the frontcourt, such that he/she or a teammate is the first to touch it in the backcourt."

So the ball gets FC status, but there is still no BC violation as it didn't touch a player from team A there before returning to the BC.

My post should have read...

The referee is treated no differently than the floor at that spot. And since the ball has to touch a player from team A in order to satisfy the 3rd condition for a BC violation, then no violation.

NFHS 4-4-2: “A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if "neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.”

4-4-4: “A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual’s location.”

Think about it: if the ball is in flight from backcourt to frontcourt, you would end your 10-second count if the ball touched in the frontcourt.

Again, not correct. Rule 9-9-2.

The ball remains in control of Team A. Thus, Team A caused the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to the backcourt, and Team A was the first to touch the ball in the backcourt. This play is a violation.

I thought one of the conditions for a BC violation was that a player from Team A would have to be the last one to touch the ball before it went into the backcourt. I read the conditions wrong. Thankfully, that play hasn't happened to me.

They WERE the last to touch the ball before it went iny the backcourt.

Those conditions still hold. At the point the ball is moving into the BC from the FC, who is the last to have touched it?

The last to touch the ball while the player was in the frontcourt. Sorry, I thought that was implied in my post.

Moral of the story, get the F out of the way :D

I have always understood that when on the court I am the same as the floor. But, now what if; I am inbounds near a side-line and a wild pass should hit me in the chest and deflect back onto the court. Had I not been there then the ball would clearly have gone OOB.I think I would have to go with an OOB. Correct? Would hate to see bouncing balls off of officials become part of plays. :eek:

I don't like it either, but that's the rule.

I've had a ball hit me in the chest or leg, effectively saving the ball, and at least one time, directly lead to a fast break at the other end. I didn't like it, but I didn't blow it dead either. Tough break for one team, lucky break for the other.

Three lashes and back to the rules book for you, junior!

Billy, this seems to be the act of dribbling, and comes under the "3 points touching in the front court" exception.

Thoughts?

The Plot Thickens ...
 

It is certainly a dribble. Good point. Never mind.

Little Corner Of Denmark ...
 

I'll try again.

I'm in the backcourt, holding the ball, having already given up my dribble (not allowed to dribble again, three points across the division line are not relevant) and I pass the ball into the frontcourt, and backspin the ball in such a way that it bounces in the frontcourt and comes back to me, while I'm still in my backcourt, and the ball hits me in the leg. Legal? I don't think so.

That seems to be illegal:

9-2 While in player and team control in its backcourt, a player shall not cause the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt, wothout the ball first touching a player in frontcourt, such that he/she or a teammate is the first to touch it in the backcourt.

Either illegal dribble or backcourt violation.
Your choice.

I just moved all the off topic posts to a new thread. It veered just a little too far off topic, from backcourt violations to illegal dribbles.

I've actually had this play in a recreation league and no one liked it:

A1 stopped dribbling in BC right next to the division line on the far left. A2 was in the BC to the far right. A1 passed the ball across the court towards A2. The pass bounced once in the FC and A2, reaching slightly, caught the ball. Basically A1 and A2 were both in the BC but the pass between them bounced once in the FC. = Violation.

Can we go with tableside and opposite table next time? ;)

Yes, thanks for that, makes sense.

(For the record, when the play happened in the Rec League, the table was on the end of the court;))