Kentucky-Florida 4 second call?? (Video)
 

Anyone else catch the four second count on the inbounds at 18:28 in the first half? One camera angle shows the official bouncing the ball and beginning his count, and you can see his arm clearly count to four before he whistles it dead.

Also 6:50 left in the second half, travel? Maybe they missed it due to the transition?

Pat Adams just came from a thousand feet away and whistled a travel under the basket with 52 seconds left saying it was prior to the foul the other two officials were calling. Replay shows he was wrong and that the FL player had begun a dribble.

Yeah saw that one too. I think they struggled a bit tonight. Bilas was his ridiculous self again tonight too...

Someone please post this one so we can judge for ourselves.

Bilas was really ridiculous when he screamed flop earlier and even worse when he argued for a foul against an empty had. Call him and idiot would be an insult to idiots.

The distance away means nothing to me. The other two were focused on contact. I only care if the player actually traveled or not.

That sure looked like a correct travel call on the SportsCenter replay. Florida player shuffles his feet while holding the ball before the contact occurs.

Bilas is an a**hole, he always will be, and his opinion is not valued by anyone that has the first clue about officiating.

I absolutely hate each and everyone one of y'all for possibly (probably) subjecting me to listen to Bilas bitch.

"Shuffle" isn't specific foot movement and isn't helpful when determining traveling or not. Please state what foot movement you saw.

I agree that Bilas was sanctimonious and unduly negative. His disdain for what I believed was a fully correct PC against Kentucky with about 2 minutes left was absurd.

Replay shows you are wrong. Pat was at Trail -- primary on all post traveling.

Some of you may be able to browse to the plays (18:28 first half and 6:50, 1:54, and 0:52 second half) here: ESPN3 -- Kentucky vs. Florida

I fully understand that he was the Trail. (Hence my choice to write that he came from 1,000 FT away.). Doesn't magically make his call correct. He can't see the ball on the other side of the player's body.

Furthermore, I haven't been taught that the Trail watches for traveling by post players on the C's side. He can certainly help, but he isn't primary.

Doesn't magically make his call incorrect either.

Outside the paint on C side? Not Trail's primary. Good thing this was in the paint. Pat had a wide open look at the players feet and he made a great CC.

Clearly we disagree on the correctness of the decision and also the primary calling official.

Let's talk a little 3-person theory. What is the strong side? Which officials are on that side? Why does the Trail look for post travels?

Bilas is always unbearable when commenting on officiating.

That said, I felt that this PC was questionable. Defender and clear LGP, but he REALLY sold the contact.

I still think his call was incorrect. It looks to me as though the player had started his dribble before his feet moved. Even if it is his primary, he was in no position to see the dribble being started, and probably based his decision only on the feet moving.

To be more precise, did the dribble begin before the pivot foot was lifted and could Pat Adams see that from his position. My belief is that he doesn't have x-ray vision.

I've not yet seen a very good replay angle but it did not look like a travel to me.

Whatever side the ball is on. Trail and Lead. Because he typically doesn't have any competitive matchups in his area and helps out the Lead who is reffing waist up and watching for contact. What do I win??

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It was a travel
 

Thanks for posting APG.

The final clip frame convinces me it was a travel.

#21 catches the ball with his left hand and establishes his left foot as the pivot simultaneously. He lifts the pivot up and brings it down before releasing the ball to the floor. I don't love that the T didn't close down immediately after his call but I believe it was a CC.

It's the replay from under the basket that sold me on the travel last night. Both feet move on the pump fake, well before the dribble. The left foot's the pivot, it's lifted well before the dribble. It's also replanted, which isn't necessary for a travel call since the player dribbled, but it sure makes it an even easier call.

No problem with the player control foul -- that dip of the shoulder and subsequent use of it is enough for me.

1) appears quick but do we have the whole play?

2) definitely traveled

3) It's a travel, but the Slot should have had that. Trail did come from a long way to get it because he works so far from the basket.

4) Easy PC...and again Trail is a long way from the play

Thanks APG, you the man! The first play the ball is bounced to the inbounder while the camera is at a different angle, a sideline view showing Coach Donovan, but you can see the inbound play at the other end of the court. The view then changes to the one you see in the video posted, and there are only three more counts before a five second call is made.

Waiting for someone to come in and ask, "What is a slot?" LOL.

Is it possible he didn't swing the arm for the 5th count? There's a 1-second-ish delay between what appears to be the fourth swing and the calling of the violation.

Apparently a bunch of NBA referees post in here ;)

I completely agree on all four points.

I actually think you're probably right, I just don't know why anyone would do that. When I watched it live, I actually rewound and pulled out the old stopwatch and timed it: 5.04 is what I had. Legitimate 5 seconds yes, but very odd to not actually count the full 5.

Nah, I'm just poking fun.

Bilas: "I don't know how you can do that. That's a foul, not a walk."
Me: "I don't know how you have a job."

It's really a shame. So many people look up to Bilas as one of the smartest sports commentators on television, and yet he blatantly misleads viewers with his lack of rules knowledge, constant second-guessing of the officials' judgment, and making it his mission to let everyone know that no one knows more than he does.

Now that I've seen a better view of 3, I now agree on all.

Play #1: The play only shows 3 chops. I am wondering if this was not cut off a little, but I am not surprised if this was a little quick.

Play #2: Looks like a travel before he dribbles the ball. I can see why it might have been missed as players were all around the ball.

Play #3: That is a travel. I do not like where the Trail had to come from to get this. He should have been more in the play IMO. And if he was closer he might have helped sell the call.

Play #4: I think it was a good call. I do not think that it was a flop. Maybe a little embellishment but he was hit in the chest and did get displaced.

Peace

1 no opinion

3 and 4 were good calls. Good teamwork on 3.
But for 2...I thought it was a clear violation at first. But then I'm slowing it down and not seeing it. An awkward dribble to start but I don't think there was a travel but I could be wrong.

Seriously? You need to look again. He is very clearly off the ground when he starts the dribble. Textbook.

first two times I saw it I thought it was a violation. I'm just not 100% certain I still do.

So a travel before the dribble? Or could they have called a double dribble when he got it again, when he had his arms back like "I can't touch it".

to quote form Billy Mac
https://forum.officiating.com/basket...4-version.html

Is this why you guys are seeing a travel?
To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted.

Yes, that, plus the fact that he also replanted his pivot foot, so he traveled 2 different ways on the same play.

On play 4 the offensive foul, should the T get the first crack at this since it is in his PCA? Although the C has the better view since the T is so far away and not nearly as good of an angle.

You answered your own question.

I'm really anxious to hear Nevada's opinion now that we have the video. :rolleyes:

All of those are correct. Now when you consider that the Center isn't as close to a post match-up as the Lead and this extra distance permits him to see floor to ceiling instead of just looking for contact from the waist up, you will understand why the Center can call his own travel violations as well as look for fouls and doesn't need the Trail coming in to help. Often the post player situation on the C's side is merely 1 v 1 as it is the weak side and the ball comes there quickly on a short pass from the strong side. This means that the C has a clear and open look at these players in his PCA. If the play doesn't finish quickly and several players come over to contest the action, the Lead should rotate and the old C becomes the new Trail and continues to look for traveling. Either way, the old Trail is not involved. That's how it works in theory anyway.

I just went and watched the video clip (actually watched it three times, with emphasis on the last few seconds showing the view from the endline).

Here is what I see. The player has trouble catching the pass with his left hand and does not gain control until his puts both hands on the ball. At this time his left foot is on the floor and his right is in the air, so the left foot will become his pivot foot once the right foot touches the court. It does and he pump fakes the defender. In doing so, he slightly moves his left foot before beginning a dribble. He then gets crushed by the defender. Both the Lead and Center signal for a foul, and the Trail then comes in and calls a travel.
So here are the issues:
a. Does the player actually travel? Yes, there is small movement of the pivot foot before the dribble.
b. Does the Center have a clear and unobstructed view of this play in his PCA? Yes, so it is his call all the way and he passed on the foot movement and called a foul.
c. Ant v Elephant: has this amount of foot movement been called a travel all game or will this be the first time it is penalized? With 52 seconds left, should the Trail come into his partner's PCA and call the travel (the ant) or let his partner go ahead with calling the foul for the kid getting smashed (the elephant)?
I think that the T came and got an ant when everyone else in the building was watching the elephant on the court.

Slightly. Right.

I am the first one to make fun of the almost insane nitpicking of traveling some do around here, but this travel aids in the pump fake that draws the crash onto the ball handler. So you'd advocate not only missing that travel, but also calling the foul on the defender.

I don't understand how the slight movement of the left foot aided the player in his pump fake. It's not as if he took a large step to a new location or went two feet into the air. His foot perhaps came an inch off the floor.

I don't think that this foot movement had a major influence on the upper body movement or the player bracing for the impending contact.

I certainly don't see this slight foot movement as something that I'd come 45 feet to get in front of my partner who has a clear and open look at the action.