Traveling Violation - Coaching Points (VIDEO)
 

I'm looking for some coaching points. In the video, the dribber is called for a travel. The kid does this move pretty often but the travel calls only come about 10% of the time. But this game, it was called a lot more often.

http://youtu.be/i2x_NPLYIVs

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How can I help this player understand why it's called and improve his technique?
Is it simply because he didn't land on 2 feet?

Background -- I think it's a travel too but when it's call so inconsistently, I start to doubt myself. Also, when it's called inconsistently, the player starts to doubt my coaching points. Also, the definition of traveling seems to have
evolved from when I was coached 30 years ago (i.e. the dribbler seems to have more freedom/creativity).

Lastly, I've never been formally trained on traveling infractions. I only go by what I think I can learn by watching games and searching youtube (and trying to comprehend the rule book).

One of two things would make this legal:
1. Gathering the dribble after he makes that last leap.
2. Landing on both feet at the same time. Note, if he does this, neither foot can be a pivot.

The fact that it gets missed 90% of the time is likely a factor of the level of play and the officials are either inexperienced or don't want to call a lot of travels at that age.

I'd call it.

It's close but I have the player gathering when he is in the air. Thus, he can land and establish a pivot foot which is his left. I do not see his pivot moved in excess of the rule limits after that.

I agree it's close, but I see the gather with the right foot on the floor. If he gathers in the air, then the official incorrectly called a travel. If he gathers with the foot still down, then this is a travel.

Gathered In The Air ...
 

Tough call. Real time: Legal. Left foot is the pivot foot before the pass.

guess I don't see it
totally legal. I'd never call that a travel in HS.
edit- I don't really see any of the feet moving after he lands.

I'm not sure what your final point is looking for. His feet don't move after he lands, that's not the question.

Where are his feet when he gathers his dribble?

I actually missed this one the first time, but in retrospect was embarrassed about it. Seems obvious to me now that he caught the ball in both hands before jumping and landing with a one two count.

I have a legal play.

Peace

Also, understand that officials are trained to watch the defense and sometimes miss very close travel violations.

Travel...The dribbler catches the ball with the right foot on the floor, he then jumps and lands on the left followed by the right. Both feet must come down at the same time to be legal.

It isn't always caught and some people can't even see it in slow motion but it is what it is.

Looks legal to me, but to answer your question about why it's not consistently called one way or another? It's really close. The fact that we have a slow-mo on the play and the forum is still split is proof of that. As some others have indicated, if he gathers with one foot still on the ground, even if it's just his toe as he is leaping, then he can't land 1-2. If he gathers in the air, he's all set. So if you want to minimize (though not eliminate) the times it is called a travel, the coaching point would be to try to gather the ball just a split second later, so that it is a little clearer to officials that he is grabbing the ball with both hands while in the air, rather than making them make a close-call decision.

Travel, but close to legal.
1. At 2 second point of video (in real time) and 8 second point in slow motion, dribbler ends dribble while foot is on the floor. Right foot becomes pivot foot.
2. Player leaps, causing pivot foot to leave the floor.
3. Pivot foot lands before the ball is passed (or shot); resulting in travel.

Had the ball been gathered to end dribble a half second later, after the leap, no pivot foot would be established until he lands. Legal play.

That is how I see it anyway.

I'm joining the no travel club because I think the dribble ended post-leap. But yeah, it's very close. Hard to tell with this camera angle. Probably hard for the officials, too. This was a 2-person game, and the trail wasn't even in the picture, meaning he was probably too high and not in good position to see the play (so he guessed...a cardinal sin). If he's lower, or if this is a 3-person game and there's a reliable C accepting this play, the officials probably get a much better look. And even then, I'm not sure they'd have enough evidence to call a travel here in real time.

At a recent association meeting in my neck of the woods, leadership noted that they were unhappy with the amount of non-travels being called travels. If anything, they'd rather we err on the side of travels not being called if we're not sure. So I'd probably let this go. It's also probably why 90% of officials in the OPs area do as well.

I had to watch it a few times trying to see when he gathers the ball. Looks like a travel in the video for reasons already posted.

As to it only be called some of the time I would suggest that perhaps he is gathering at different times even though he's trying to execute the same move.

Also, as officials, we try not to guess. I had a game today where I thought it likely that the player had travelled, but I wasn't sure so I passed on it. Even talked about it with my partner who happened to get a look at it as well. With this move I think officials may be in that situation.

I would pass on it
 

From this angle, it is difficult to judge precisely when he has gathered, and therefore, whether his right foot was still on the floor when he gathered.

It would be even more difficult in a game unless you are using a three-man crew with the play coming towards the C.

During a game, I would pass on it unless I was sure that it was a travel. I woiuldn't doubt my partner if he/she called it and I wouldn't have the benefit of seeing it from their angle.

There are a lot of you tube videos on how to execute the jump stop. The keys are to (1) gather in the air and (2) land simultaneously on both feet. If either of those occurs, the move in the video is legal. If they both occur, either foot can then be the pivot foot and he can take one more step.

From a coaching standpoint, can you live with it being called 10% of the time? If not, then he shouldn't use that move until he can execute it correctly all of the time. I suspect you can live with it since you probably have to live with other turnovers and missed shots.

He could also show the move several times in warmups where the officials might be observing the players. If the officials see him perform the move correctly in warmups, they may be less inclined to call it in a game. However, this could backfire if they see him perform the move incorrectly before the game. During warmups, the officials are doing more than just watching to see if anyone dunks.

My opinion is that players "have gathered" later in the move than when many fans think it occurs. I think fans consider one hand contacting the ball after the last dribble to mean that the player has gathered it.

Thanks for the feedback on the coaching points. Certainly some things I can work with him on.

It being called about 10% is certainly manageable. This one particular game, it was probably called 80% of the time (I think 4 out 5 times) so I was looking for a way to help (and better understand myself).

This is 7th grade Catholic School league with 2 man crews.

Thanks again.

I would wager those saying the player had gathered the ball with his right foot on the floor paused the video before coming to that conclusion.

Anytime you have to pause the video to figure something out, it was not obvious.

Peace

Not me. I watched it at the speed it was presented, and what I saw the first time never changed after watching a few times.

The problem is, I think there is quite a bit of judgment of what it means to "gather."

Nope.

Not obvious is not the same thing as not happening.

If it happened, even though it may take some a slo-mo or paused video to see it, it still happened. If it is called in such a case, the call is still correct.

Officials that can see it and tell the difference shouldn't have to dumb down their calls for those who can't tell what happened.

Simplest thing would be to teach your players to land on 2 feet.

1) If they gather with one foot on the ground, jump off that foot, and land on 2 feet, they are still legal.

2) If they gather while in the air, then land on 2 feet, then either foot can be a pivot foot.

There are a lot of plays in which we could split hairs with our judgment. I want to call the things that are obvious, not the ones I have to debate actually happened. And unlike what we are doing here, I do not get another shot to make that call. It has to stand out. And this does not stand out as to when he gathered the ball. And if I have to determine that by slowing down the video, I would rather pass on that call. And I call a lot of travels in games BTW.

Peace

So now we have not one debate but two.

First: What is obvious?

Second: Is it proper to call only that which is obvious?

I see a lot of those types of plays in real time. My eyes are trained from watching many of these plays and by quickly identifying a pivot foot.

But I'm calling the game in real time and people are watching it in real time. It just isn't that important to me to be able to say "gotcha" on one that nobody else in the building thinks is a travel.

It's rare that any of us move on our philosophy in these threads, so I wonder what the point is sometimes. There are people here (and I'm not specifically referring to the post I'm responding to) who think traveling is a major problem in hoops and it's their goal to let everyone know that. And I just don't care -- I just want to get the ones I'm expected to get (that actually are travels).

An aside: My sense, perhaps clouded by the years, is that travelling, double driblling, and carrying [yes, I know not separately in the book...] are all called more leniently at the HS level than they were 30 years ago when I played. Any of the, um, more senior refs out there have any sense if that is true or if I'm just turning into one of those crumudgens blathering about "back in my day . . . "? (Along the same lines, it seems HS allows a lot more physical contact, especially on the perimiter, than I recall being acceptable.)

I don't think you're wrong at all.

I don't think traveling is a big problem, and I don't want to call a travel that has to be reveiwed in stop motion animation replay to verify. This video, while close, seems clear enough to me that I'd call it in real time.
Certainly it's close enough I'm not going to say the guy on the floor with a better angle of the gather was wrong.

For those of us who post less than others, this kind of debate is VERY helpful. We benefit from your back and forth so it is far from pointless and I am glad y'all get into it. I'll go back to my seat now and finish my popcorn...

This is very close. I have a general rule with travels, if I'm not 100% sure I don't call it. The faster and more athletic the game gets the tougher and tougher travels get. If you need multiple replays to tell I'm perfectly fine with not having a whistle.

I needed 1 time to see. So did the Slot.

I posted what I did above without looking at the video.

I watched the video. That one isn't even that close, IMO.

Agreed. My only point is that it is or is not a travel based simply on the action that occurs whether we can or can not tell at full speed or even in slow motion. What video can or does reveal doesn't change reality, it only make reality known, sometimes.

If it is so close it takes slo-mo to tell it was a travel, I would not tag the official with an INC, but it was still a travel, just one that was not possible to see at game speed.

I am in the it's really close camp and I think that is why you are getting the differing calls. It is all in the judgment of the official as to when he actually gathers the ball. That being said, if I am not sure, and have to slow it down that much and I am still not sure, I ain't guessing and we are playing on.

This is the classic "jump stop" offensive move. No dragging of the pivot once the ball had been gathered and the dribble stopped --player instaneously stopped.

Refs who call this a travel are guilty of one of the cardinal rules of officiating: "inserting themselves into the game". I have nothing on this play.

Message to the Coach: there is really nothing you can do to help your player to avoid the possiblilty that 1 out of 20 times he will be whistled for a "travel" when this move is executed. As evidenced by the variance of opinion within this thread of experienced refs there is no consensus; however, most would pass on this call and let the offensive possesion continue.

You're saying the gather took place while the player had both feet off the floor?

What are you talking about, we already *ARE* inserted into the game, to make make sure it's run according to the rules. Of course we shouldn't unnecessarily become a spectacle, but this is an empty saying, signifying nothing.

As evidenced, reasonable, educated officials can have a difference of opinion and judgment, quite validly. But to dismiss one side with whom you disagree with such a trite cliche is frankly condescending and simplistic.

+1 on advice for coaching this.

I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the ball handler as to when the gather occurs but this one seemed pretty obvious to me at real time and on the first view.

Classic example of failure to properly execute a jump stop and a clear travel to me. Not close.

I agree with what someone stated earlier. Perhaps not called much in the OP's games b/c of inexperienced officials and/or officials not wanting to blow a lot of violations at that level.

I'm sorry but this is horrible advice to the coach and not at all a "classic jump stop."

I've coached and been around a lot of D-1 and high level HS coaches. They ALL teach players to jump stop while landing with two feet simultaneously. ALL of them.

On first viewing in real time, it looked like a badly-executed attempt to jump stop and I had a traveling violation. After slowing it down and looking more closely, I had the exact same thing. For me, this is a violation.

*Regardless of what you think and/or what type of 'coaching' you have provided [or been privy to] it does not change the fact that the majority of reasonable and experienced refs will have "nothing" when they observe this maneuver. The practical advice to the query coach was simple and clear in this case: expect that 1 out of 10 times this will be called a travel so learn to cope with it and play through it. Most successful coaches recognize this.

Now, although the 'sample size" is limited [and I will concede skewed], if you just go back and calculate respondents to this thread: the % who had "nothing" compared to the % who had "travel"--the % who had "nothing" is greater. Not that this makes it a 'non-travel', but rather underscores {no pun intended} the essential point of my post. Thanks for clarifying.

My unofficial count of posters in this thread is 8 officials say travel with 8 saying no violation. So I'm disputing your contention that the percentage of posters who had nothing is greater.

And I think to say that the "majority of reasonable and experienced officials will have nothing" on this play is entirely off base and definitely not a "fact". The coach cited it being called around 10% of the time normally but much more in this particular game. That but could be the result of the level of officiating and what officials want to call at that level of play. And maybe the guy who called it more frequently was a more experienced official. I guess your advice is fine if his kids are going to stay at this level forever and with this level of officiating and he is happy with this move resulting in a turnover anywhere from 10 to 50% of the time.

The coach, however, specifically asked what he can do to help his player understand why this is called and improve his technique. In this context, your advice is horrible IMO. And I stand by that as both a former coach and a current official.

There seems to be some dispute amongst posters here about when the gather occurs and that is the reason for the split in whether its a travel or not. But there really should be no argument that if the kid lands on both feet there is no violation. So as BNR suggested and as I seconded based on my experiences with people who coach this game at a high level---Its pretty simple advice to a coach looking to improve his kids technique that he should be teaching him to land on two feet. That is a "classic jump stop." What we see in this video is NOT. And that's why it will be called a violation with varying degrees of frequency.

*This will be my final comment to this thread because the "coach" that originated it has evidently gleaned all of the advice from us refs as indicated by the fact that s/he is no longer posting to this thread. But from the tenor of your comments I percieve that your intentions in continuing to post on it are to "lock horns" with me instead of addressing the central issue at hand, thus you have spun the thread into irrelevance and impracticality.

You can spin it however you want but there is plenty of relevance and practicality left in this thread for the willing.

My intention was not to "lock horns" but simply to address the coaches question of what he could do to help is player understand why it was called and improve his technique. You asserted that "there is really nothing (the coach) could do to help his player" which, frankly, is horrible advice.

Half of those who responded in this thread felt it was a travel while several of those who leaned toward no travel thought it was close to being a violation even if they would have passed on it. At least 4 "experienced" officials in this thread, including those who work college ball, state championship level HS ball, and/or serve as evaluators and administrators on this site felt it was a clear travel and really not that close at all.

So again, your advice to a coach looking to improve his player's technique to basically, "not worry about it" is extremely poor IMO. So I chose to point that out and reaffirm advice others had offered. And I also think that your reference to this as a "classic jump stop" was flat out wrong as well as ALL of the HS and college coaches I've been around consistently teach players to jump stop with 2 feet. That's more fundamentally sound and greatly reduces the likelihood of a violation and a turnover.

This is not a matter of being contentious or personal, its a matter of trying to address a question with info that is accurate and useful. And Adam did that in the first response to the thread:

"One of two things would make this legal:
1. Gathering the dribble after he makes that last leap.
2. Landing on both feet at the same time. Note, if he does this, neither foot can be a pivot."

Telling a coach not to worry about what is, at best a borderline violation, and at worst a clear violation to many experienced officials, does not serve anybody and I simply chose to counter that advice.

OP still here and digesting all the comments (and quite appreciative).

What I've learned is that it's a difficult call (esp from the video and maybe from the refs position -- i.e -- when it's not called, the ref may just have a bad view).

And I've been working with the player on when he gathers and how he lands.
Things that I haven't taught well before.

This is a 7th grade Catholic school league where very few of the players will move on to HS ball.

Your odds of getting consistent calls on this type of thing at this level (at least in most places) just aren't great. The better you can teach, the better. But you will get refs who are just wrong, or just don't watch carefully. IMO, one of the best tools you can give your players for sports (and life) is to be aware of what is getting called. If a ref is calling somthing today, players need to adjust - whether it is three in the key, travelling, types of fouls, etc. This is true not only at MS level, but as (if) they progress - the distinctions and awareness just becomes more subtle.

Example: I help coach my son's 8th grade team, and we had a ref that was calling three seconds (at least on the big guys) after about 2.5 seconds. We talked to our big guys about getting in and out faster, and didn't have calls in the second half. Alternatively, we and they could have just kept complaining about the call all game -- and the refs would have just kept calling it and our team would have suffered -- even if we were "right."

I think this is a travel, thought that on the first viewing and I don't think it's particularly all that close. I'm also not the one that will look for a travel in every little thing that goes on.

This is an attempt at a jump stop but it is not a legal jump stop. Even if you have him gathering in the air, he comes down with his left foot first as the pivot which wouldn't be technically a jump stop either but would be legal.

Coach, glad to see you're still here. You've seen this move many times, so you tell us. In general, and in this clip in particular, when do you see him catching the ball to end the dribble? And were you here because you thought this was a bad call or did you not know the specifics of the rule?

I am on the side who says this is indeed a travel, and not that close to being legal.

In this clip, I think he ends his dribble with his right foot on the ground. Before reading this, I didn't know to look for that (I know, pretty bad coaching). So therefore, a travel.

I'm not shy about saying if I think something is bad call. In this case, I really just didn't understand the inconsistency. I feel much more comfortable now. And the player has already made improvements.

So I've learned a lot and adjusted the coaching points. So 2 more examples from a recent game.
I think example 1 is illegal. And example 2 is legal. I've left out the ref making any calls because that's not important. Am I seeing it correctly?

example 1 (illegal) - trying to execute a jump stop but gathers with 1 foot still on the ground and then lands one foot at at time
example 2 (legal)- another jump stop but lands on both feet

(in case embed doesn't work: http://youtu.be/yzzFB9z2qJw)

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Correct.

The game is more enjoyable when you understand the rules.