Foul or Held Ball? (Video)
 

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No foul, held ball.

Held ball.

Held ball

i read too much. dont see too well. having said that, it looked to me like he got all wrist and not much ball. foul

You are right about that. The defender is on the ball.

Even if thats hard to see in real time, the way the play develops indicates that as well. If the defender got all wrist, the ball is likely going to come loose at some point, which does not happen.

This looks fairly clear to me. If one was going to call a foul here it would seem to me it would come from them thinking there was body contact initiated by the defender coming toward the offense. I don't see that either but up top is clean.

I have a pushing foul by B33 against W5. B33 jumps forward into W5 after W5 goes airborne and makes full body contact with B33.

MTD, Sr.

we will agree to disagree. the offense goes up with two hands and actually moves ball a bit. defense comes across wrist and i dont think he ever touches ball. offense going up hard and just holding on to ball. i thought that on first view and think even more on the slow shots. again, we will agree to disagree. i dont have any problem with the body here either.

We can agree to disagree but I think the 0:16 and 0:17 clearly show the defender hitting the ball. And the contact up top, if any, is on the hand not the wrist, which we all know is part of the ball.

i see wrist to wrist contact. defender finger tips pointed to sky when i see contact between wrists. just not seeing hand to ball or hand to hand on ball contact. its late, im tired....and it is a small square im looking at...i'll try again in the morning. thx

Doesn't really matter if the defender is vertical...which is pretty much what you just said. Contact with the wrist in the defender's vertical plane isn't a foul on the defender since the defender is in a legal position if their arms are raised above their head from LGP. And i believe the defender easily had LGP and jumped vertically within his plane and raised his arms in that plane. They only came out of the plan after they came together and the shot was stopped.

Good defensive play... held ball

And the call was...?
 

I've got a held ball because I don't see where the defender did anything wrong. AND, the actual call was? :)

The lead had a foul on the play.

This is clearly a held ball to me. I seem contact with the ball and some wrist contact that was after the block attempt.

Peace

Foul. Defender steps to the offensive player as he ends his dribble. Jump straight after moving to shooter, hits with body and hits wrist.

Happy Trail to You -- If Given a Chance
 

A more intriguing question besides what is the correct call is this: "Who should make a call on a play like this?"
This is one of those situations deserving of special pregame mention. Every single game. Without fail. Common enough not to just let 'em happen and take a chance on 'em and hope the Lead or Center gets it right.
Lead, presuming he's in closedown position, is in a very bad position to make that call -- he's straightlined. Right?
Center, with the dribble-drive originating in his area, isn't really able to catch a cross-section of the play either, unless stepped waaaaay down. Right?
Neither of those two have any kind of slot view. Neither can reliably determine whether the defender is in his vertical or not, initiating contact or not, jumping into the shooter or not. And when either make a call on this one, most of the time it's gonna be against the defender whether or not he made contact outside his vertical.
This is where an engaged Trail, the only one of the three, by virtue of his positioning, would have a good look at it in order to make a call. But it really takes discipline on the part of a diligent crew for the Lead and Center to withhold their whistles in favor of what their Trail might determine.
In the two-person system, this really, really is a tough one, since both Lead and Trail are likely stacked on the play.
Agree? Or have I been listening to too much Badfinger today all day at work?

What is illegal about that.

Easily a held ball.

I don't know how you have anything but defender jumping vertically? :confused:

Who's the home team?

But in all seriousness. I'm with BigCat on this one. Looks like a foul.

In my world, that satisfies the principal of verticality and colloquially would be known as a "weenie foul."

I have the player jumping vertically but moving forward into space while the offense is gathered and jumping into their shot. Did not have LGP in the position he's trying to maintain vertically. If you are going to call the foul that's enough to put it on the D.

In my corner of the universe in a game where players are athletic enough to do that (which isn't often) you need a lot more contact then that to have anything but a no call or in this case the held ball.

Mine, too. Technically a foul by strict interpretation, but sometimes we have to be loose constructionists in our business. If the defender is going up mostly vertical, and is clearly that athletic, and gets hand on ball at the apex....not a foul! This kind of play is great for the game. Excellent place for a held ball.

I'm not sure how it works in FIBA but in NFHS as long as the defender is done moving forward before the offensive player goes airborne, he can still obtain LGP.

That said, I have a held ball and that's it.

FIBA we go on the gather now (similar to the NCAA interp from last year that they reversed this year). That being said I felt like the offense was still coming forward when the offense left the floor.

But I've got held ball as that has little to no impact on the play.

Add "block shots" to the list of plays (including: block/charge and traveling)that officials struggle to officiate correctly.

Simply put, if you work games with limited size, quickness, & athleticism...then you probably will view this as a foul (as you don't have very many block shots that occur in those types of games).

From my view, this is NOT a foul - simply a held ball. The defender had LGP, did not got thru the body of the shooter to get to the ball, and made contact w/ the ball prior to any contact w/ the hand/wrist/arm.

I'm sure others will disagree...or even feel as if I'm disparaging the games they work...that's certainly not my intent. Simply trying to clarify WHY I feel it's a held ball and why others may feel it's a foul.

This is a generalization but I tend to agree with it. I'm sure there are a few in this thread with impressive resumes who would call this a foul but the majority seem to agree its a held ball.

And my experience and observations on the court leads me to the same generalization regarding the kinds of games people usually work. In the extended DC metro area there is a wide range of quality of play at the HS level. From very mediocre ball to some of the best HS competition in the country.

Occasionally guys who work mostly mediocre level of play get games with future D-1 players and it shows. They have too many fouls on marginal contact and whistles that shouldnt be in the game. Then often freeze up and miss the obvious stuff right in front of them. But I digress.

Earlier this season I was watching the game after mine in a tip off tournament with some very good teams. I happen to be watching with one of the most respected evaluators in our state and who is also the father of a D-1 official. A guy was reffing a game that was over his head and after a foul call on a play that was a simple out of bounds the evaluator said, "he has NO IDEA what a foul is."

When I see this thread and the one where officials want to T a kid for hanging on the rim to stabilize his momentum this generalization comes to mind.