Based on some local HS soccer kids who were drunk at a scrimmage - caught by their coach who reported them, I became curious about the duty to report.

If you are officiating a basketball game and it appears that a kid is intoxicated, what are your responsibilities and actions as an official? Does this vary by association?

As far as I know, my association makes no requirement that I report this type of incident to anyone.

Would I tell the coach? Probably. Would I tell the police? Probably not.

I don't think that there are any stipulations requiring an official to take any action here, but I agree with Chuck.
Let game management know what you have seen and let them take care of it. This would take any potential problems away from the officials.

Seems funny to me that the rulebook specifically addresses tobacco as a technical foul rather than being more broad and including drugs and/or alcohol.

Regardless, I would notify game management. I would also follow-up with the A.D. later through our local association to make sure that it was addressed.

Z

I would also report it as an umusual circumstance to my High School Activities Association

I would think that if you have a well placed suspicion that kid is intoxicated that we would have a duty to prevent him from playing

You can see someone smoking or chewing tobacco.That is clear proof of usage. To smell alcohol on someone is not necessarily proof that they have been drinking. Medications such as some cough medicines will give you the same type of smell. Suspicion of drug use is usually that,too- just suspicion also and not irrefutable proof. That's why we just report our suspicions to a coach or AD, and let them make the decision. It covers our butts both ways- by alerting the proper authorities to a potential problem,but also not acting hastily without sufficient proof to back up our actions. Of course,if the kid is showing signs of physical impairment,like stumbling around or falling down,then that is enough proof for me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 2nd, 2003 at 01:36 PM]

You're not going to SEE the smoking right on the court, you'd see it as you walked around the gym trying to find the door that's open. That's also when you would SEE the drinking, or the roach clip (wow does that date me or what?!?) or whatever. If you only smelled tobacco, would you report it?

I will not referee a game where the participants have been drinking. That would be looking for trouble.

Juulie,you're changing the context of the discussion.We have no jurisdiction off the court,walking around,as to whether we can call a T for tobacco usage. Z was talking about making alcohol a technical foul,the same as tobacco usage is now. We now only have jurisdiction over tobacco usage on the court or the bench, and our jurisdiction only encompasses the teams- no one else in the gym- and it also ends when we leave the court at the end of a game. What I am saying is that the smell of alcohol on a player,coach or member of a team's bench is not <i>prima facie</i> proof that they have been drinking. We could find ourselves Ting somebody up for using a cough medicine,if we went by smell alone as proof that someone had been drinking.That,I think,is the reason that alcohol has never been included with tobacco usage as a T. Of course,simply smelling tobacco on some one is also never proof that they have been smoking,either. You had better catch them actually smoking or chewing on the bench now before you'd ever think of calling a T.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 3rd, 2003 at 06:32 AM]

In a basketball context, you're probably right, Juulie. But the NF also writes rules for other games (notably baseball and football) where the use of tobacco products during the game used to be perfectly acceptable. Perhaps the anti-tobacco rules originated in those sports and then the various rules committees incorporated them into all HS sports as a general NF policy. So even tho you'll never actually see it on a basketball team's bench, the rule is there for consistency's sake?

That would also explain why there are anti-tobacco rules but no anti-alcohol rules. There is no sport (other than adult-league softball, hmmmm, and maybe darts) where drinking alcohol during the contest is acceptable.

I'm honestly just guessing, but it sounds reasonable.

Coach, you may be right, I think I kicked that last one.:0

Chuck -- your explanation helps a lot.

Not allowed there either.
 

Chuck,

I really do not know where you get your information, but in both baseball and basketball tabacco product use is illegal in those NF sports. It warrants an ejection automatically with the discovery of the use of those products. This applies to the coaches, trainers, team attendants and players. Clearly in the Football Rulebook under 9-8-1j this is spelled out. And if I had the Baseball Rulebook handy, I would quote that rule as well. Not only that, it is illegal in my state to have any of these products on school property. I am sure other states have a similar law, so it might not even be something we have to deal with alone.

Peace

Re: Not allowed there either.
 

No kidding? Would you just once, PLEASE, actually read my freaking post before making this kind of inane reply? Please?

To the moderators, I'm sorry. But jeez, can you blame me on this one? :(

Re: Re: Not allowed there either.
 

I did xxxxxxx. It was never acceptable in any rules I know of. It was not acceptable when I was in HS, it is not acceptable now. That is why I said, "I do not know where you get your information from." When was it acceptable Chuck, 1950? Maybe back when schools were segeragated and "chewing gum" was considered a Top 5 problem of teenagers in High School, but it was never acceptable to smoke a cigar on the sidelines.

Peace

[Edited by mick on Sep 3rd, 2003 at 05:42 PM]

Let's see...I gradjiated HS in '81, and my baseball/wrestling coach had a wad of chew in his mouth during every game/meet I can remember, so I know it was legal then...that's not the same as the 50's is it??

And Chuck, exactly how does one become an "Association hoe"?? Inquiring minds want to know...

Re: Re: Re: Not allowed there either.
 

What's "segeragated" mean? Is that like "regurgitated"?

In the early 80's, my HS had a smoking area where students over 16 were permitted to smoke. Chewing tobacco or whatever they call that stuff (Skoal, Copenhagen, etc.) was also very common around school and was permitted.

I'm pretty sure it was not illegal for the teams to have/use it during baseball or football. The stance on smoking has changed dramatially over the last 20 years.

I don't even know what an Association hoe is, let alone how to become one :confused: It doesn't sound good, tho.

Re: Re: Re: Not allowed there either.
 

I will not stoop to vulgar insults, but if you truly did read my post, then you clearly did not understand it. My point was not that smoking was a problem at the HS level; merely that it was much more common to see football or baseball personell using tobacco products in the past than it is now.

Have you ever heard of Major League Baseball? Jim Leyland used to smoke in the Pirates dugout as recently as maybe 10 years ago. Players still use chewing tobacco regularly. Ever hear of the NBA? Red Aurbach [sp, sorry] made the "victory cigar" famous, while sitting on the Celtics bench. My point was only that the culture of some games was more accepting of tobacco than basketball was/is.

And finally, if you had read my post, you would've seen that I admitted that my hypothesis was just a guess. I'm not trying to say that's what happened. I'm only venturing a guess. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But your post doesn't help the discussion at all.

[Edited by mick on Sep 3rd, 2003 at 05:43 PM]

You can give it, but you cannot take it.
 

There was a time that someone tried to call my comments in question because I was not referring to HS ball. Well unless this is something going on in your state, as long as I have lived in my state, which is nearly all my life but 4 years, I have never seen that on a large scale with HS players or coaches. Not to say you never saw it, but it was not a common practice (at the HS level). If you were talking levels higher than the HS level, then we have another discussion. But like you always try to tell me, you should have made that clear, but you did not. ;)

If you want to compare the Major Leagues with the NF, that is not a very good comparison. They still wear jewelry in the Majors and in other pro sports. The NBA has rules against that, but that has bigger liability issues to wear jewelry. But I think we have all stated at one time or another how different the pros are with their rules and their philosophy behind them. The pros are adults, not minors and children.

That is why I said you were wrong. Your guess was way off. And yes it did add to the discussion, just like your posts add to the discussion when you claim to do the same thing with me. What I find funny, is you do not appear to like it when I point out your flaws or your posts that I feel are way off. But you always seem to want to tell me what I do not know, do not understand or what I think is crazy (in my own state mind you). If you can give it, take it when it is done to you.

Peace

Rut, I was gonna reply and point out the errors in your last post, and then I thought:

Juulie says my post helped her. . .
You say I'm way off. . .

Whose feedback do I actually value? So say whatever you want. I helped Juulie and that's all I was trying to do. I'm satisfied with that. Ta.

Remember that next time when you try to tell me what I should have said. But then again, you are Chuck Elias, you are a <b>one sport official</b> that knows everything.

Peace

Rut,

Can I ask you a serious question? Why do you stoop to personal insults and name-calling? I try very hard to respond to what you say, rather than make personal comments (although once in a great while, I admit, my frustration spills into my comments and becomes personal). Yet just in this thread you've called me a dumbxxx and a know-it-all. In another recent thread, you called me a fool.

Frankly, I don't care about what you call me. I'm a firm believer in "sticks and stones" and all that. But I'm curious as to why you resort to this. It makes you seem petty. Is there some reason that you lower yourself to insults, maybe for emphasis, or something? I'm just curious. Again, this is a serious question in the hope of improving the level of dialogue here.

Don't bother asking, Chuck. He won't answer. He's incacapable of answering, especially when he has no answer. It's who and what he is, a bitter, bitter person. :(

Let me say that, if you claim that you have never called me a name, then we all need to stand back from our computers and watch out for the electric shock. I am just doing what you seem to condone and the way you seem to like to do it. If it is good for you and others, it is definitely good for me.


When you are telling me "your post was not helpful, because you did not say......," and you are calling me petty? Let us call a spade a spade here. Most of your post in response to me are extreamely petty, considering when they do not go along with your ideals or way of thinking. You have the gaul to try to tell me what I post is not helpful, because it does not answer a question you think should be asked. If you have not noticed, I hardly ever sugar-coat things. I do not answer questions like you, because I do not see the need skirt the issue. I tell it like it is, call it like I see it and I know very well that others do not agree or will never agree. That is who I am Chuck, if you like people that lie to you and give you half information, then you can find many guys here that do that every time they post. No different than if you were in a meeting with me or officiating with me. And you want to know something, that is why I am successful.

I do not feel I am lowering myself to anything. I feel I am fitting in with the status quo that prevails on this and many other officiating internet sites. Especially when the many discussions that we have here or solely opinions to begin with. Someone sent me an email a couple of weeks ago about someone that responded to me and say, "it seems like you cannot just share an opinion anymore."

If you want to raise the level of dialogue, do these things. (Of course this is my opinion).

<b>1. Understand that a post is a personal opinion shared.</b>

Unless we are talking about something black and white in the rulebook, much of what is shared is a personal opinion and a phlosophy.

<b>2. Opinions shared might work in their area, but not translate in your area.</b>

If I have learned anything, what works in my area, does not necessarily work in North Carolina or Florida or Nebraska.

<b>3. The level that the individual officiates might say something about their opinion.</b>

This is the main reason most guys I know would never come to this or any other website for officiating information. No one cares what I say, you say, Tony says, or what Mick says, because our last name is not O'Neil, Hightower, Pamon, Michalek, or Markbreit. And because none of us share those last names in officiating, what we say means nothing to the general officiating public. Last time I checked Chuck, you have not accomplished anything these guys listed have, so what you say or what I say is only going to go so far in the first place. I have always understood that, but you seem to think no one but you can have an opinion and act like a man when reading it.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Sep 4th, 2003 at 12:35 PM]

What am I bitter of Tony? Am I bitter because I do not get games? Am I bitter because of what you and others think I should be? I seemed to get hired in every camp I have attended in the past few years. I must be doing something right in officiating, so I really do not see how that is being bitter.

I get it, I do not bow down to the Almighty "most respected" Tony Haire on officiating discussion boards. That has to be it. :rolleyes: Now should I give my test scores, will that make you happy? ;)

Peace

Yer right.
I don't either.
Gimmee my 15V.

Thanks for making my point. :rolleyes:

Yer what? :confused:

If ya can't nail it, screw it!

Proving your point how? Oh, I forgot who I was talking to. Titles mean more to you (especially internet ones) than the real life ones. My bad.

Peace

Hey, he got something right for once!

Oh, come on! It was a joke. I couldn't help myself. :)

You would think the two of you would wait for the big recess and take this outside.
 

This kind of thread makes us all look bad. We are here to collaborate and share ideas. People have pointed out my mistakes and misinterpretations and they have to be taken in stride. But some of you need to either take yourselves a little less serious or just stay out.

This is about basketball...remember

There is a lot of good stuff here and it benefits a lot of people. Everyone has knowledge to share. But it gets difficult to sort through the good stuck with all of the p1ss and vinegar that is placed here.