Definite Knowledge?
 

From a coach friend of mine:

MS game (not that it matters in this one):
A down by 1, 6 seconds left, H ball in the backcourt following a timeout.

A brings the ball up court, several passes are made before they end up with a layup to win the game at the buzzer.

As the R consults with the timer to confirm whether it was released in time, the timer informs the R that she hadn't stopped the clock quickly enough before the timeout, so she made up for it by holding for a moment before starting when the official chopped in time on the throw-in.

Officials confer, and determine they now have definite knowledge of a timing error and wave off the basket. Game over, B wins.

Were the officials correct?

that sucks. It is penalizing the team that may have scored had the timing been right. Maybe they would have gotten the shot off sooner.
Yes I think they were correct. But certainly not a way you'd want to finish a game. I don't think there is any way to restart it, and have them go again? Not a correctable error.

It's Too Late Baby Now It's Too Late (Carole King, 1971) ...
 

No. They would have been correct if they spotted the timing error at the time it occurred (before the timeout), and had the definite knowledge to fix it, but it's too late at this time to fix it.

So, same situation but instead of a moment, let's say the clock doesn't start for 2 seconds. The refs know for sure the shot would have been late. But because it came before the buzzer you would still count the basket because the refs didn't notice the problem until after? I'm also thinking about hometown cooking, with the clock person being biased.

If one of the officials had a count going, he should have killed it when he got to 6. If he didn't have a count going, you can't just do this because you know it would have been late. Without a count, you've got nothing here.

For me, with 6 seconds to go, I always have a count. If I get to two and the clock hasn't moved, I'm stopping the game, resettin the clock to 4 seconds, and adminstering a new throw-in from the POI.

Agree. The official should stop it immediately when they see the clock not starting. It is unfair to the team to let it play down to 2 or 1 and declare the game over when they are expecting to have 1 or 2 more seconds to get to their shot.

Counting down to some point and declaring the game over would be the wrong game management decision.

Ok cool, will keep that in mind. End of game situations do a count, if possible quick glance at clock and see if things are lined up.

Bill:

Carole King, ;). I love the reference. Boy, we are getting old. LOL!

MTD, Sr.

why is the R conferring with the timer to determine if final shot is good? Mistake

The clock running after time out called and not picking it up. Mistake

The clock being held and not starting and not knowing it, Mistake

Taking away the basket with out definite knowledge. Mistake.

If they did not correct the time running after the time out, it's too late... They did not have definte knowledge of the time...

One mistake should not be compounded into multiple mistakes.....

The timer shouldn't be making decisions about how to fix timing mistakes.
Since the home timer incorrectly gave the home team more time to score, there is justice in the fact that the basket was nullified.

If no official has definite knowledge regarding the time, the goal must count. Regardless of whether the timer made a mistake, the time on the clock is all that matters unless an official has definite knowledge of what the time should be.

Definite knowledge may be obtained by consulting with the timer. Since that was done here with the timer stating that she purposely didn't start the clock for a couple of seconds, if the officials know that the basket was scored in the final two seconds, canceling the goal would be proper.

It's always possible for one of the two (or three) officials to glance at the clock.

No certain number of seconds was mentioned in the OP. And even if it had been, it is highly unlikely that the amount of time involved in the late stoppage was anything other than a guess. That would eliminate the possibility of the timer's overall adjustments, or lack thereof, as being anything definite.

check out this video. That's an interesting call by the refs...

http://www.maxpreps.com/blogs/maxwir...ck-mistake.htm

Oooh. I read the quote by the woman who said, "definitely less than a second," and I thought, "sounds like the claim of a biased homer." But then I watched the video and it was definitely less than a second. Probably not much more than a half a second, actually. Hard to believe they took this one away. Ouch.

That said, the timer shares a lot of the blame. Probably a home fan who got caught up in the moment. Gotta keep it serious and professional for all 32 minutes, not just 31:59.

The video is from a different source than the OP

I once worked in a gym that did not have the ability to show tenths of a second on the scoreboard, but the control box at the table had a digital reading that DID show it. We never had an issue, but as we were talking about it, we decided that since they were not visibly displayed on the scoreboard, we shouldn't be able to use them. For example, if there were 0.2 seconds left on the clock, the scoreboard would show 0:01. A shot should not be allowed under 0.3, but you don't have that definite knowledge, then that rule shouldn't apply.

So here's the question, can you use the knowledge of less than 0.3 on the scorekeeper's digital readout that is NOT on the gym's scoreboard to make a decision?

It's been discussed here before (but not in many years, I don't think) -- the general consensus is "no" -- use the information on the visible scoreboard only.

Clock At The Table ???
 

I also remember it that way. I would still like to see some type of citation. Nevadaref? A little help here, please.

It's in the rules. 5-2-5 Note.

And that's what we had concluded. The only issue I have, is if The score clock itself, not the scoreboard, shows 0.2 seconds left, and by whatever means I am made aware of that, I would have a hard time counting a non tap-in when I know it should not have counted.

If you feel that way you need to make a point of not being made aware of it.

Hickory Dickory Dock ...
 

When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and threetenths
(.3) of a second or less remains on the clock, a player may not gain control
of the ball and try for a field goal. In this situation only a tap could score.
NOTE: This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

Which clock are they referring to?

The clock is the thing on the wall, not the thing at the table.

Where's Andrew Dice Clay When You Need Him ???
 

I agree with you, but how about some type of citation, anything that we can hang our hat on, something other than our memories.

I'm not relying on memory. There is no provision in the rules for checking the time at the table.

I absolutely agree, I guess I was thinking if you didn't ask and the table buzzed you over and told you for some reason. If they start and stop the clock properly, it shouldn't matter, because they want to get that shot off regardless, but if they aren't as sharp, and the shooter gets the shot off before the buzzer? Man, that leaves a nasty taste in your mouth

I agree with everyone who says the clock on the wall is what matters here.

That said, if you get in the situation where you haven't seen the light/heard the horn, but the clock says either 0.0 or 0:00, one way to confirm the light/horn hasn't malfunctioned is to check the box at the table if it has a digital display. I had a 0.0 situation once, and sure enough the box said 0.02. So we had another throw-in. And then we heard an exceptionally quick horn. :D

I disagree. The clock is on the table, the display of the clock is on the wall.

If the clock at the table has 0.2, we have 0.2 and we can know it. Why ignore it?

It's not very often that you have a wall clock that does not display 1/10ths of a second but a box at the table that does. If this happens, it may be because the 1/10ths of a second function is not enabled on the box.

Moral of the story: Apply 2-4-1 before the game and "inspect and approve all equipment....". If you notice the clock is not displaying 1/10ths of a second as the pre-game clock is winding down, check with the timer to see if said function is disabled.

Because the teams can't see it. The game clock is what is required by rule 1-15.
"A visible game clock and scoreboard are mandatory. An alternate timing device and scoring information system shall be available in the event of malfunction."

The console at the table is not the visible game clock required by rule.

Had that occur on Wednesday. While watching the warmup period count down the final minute was in full seconds without a display of tenths. When I inquired about it, the coach let us know that he selected "yes" for the tenths in the program and even reset the box and did it again, but it still wouldn't show.

We told both coaches before the game about this and that any corrections would be made in full seconds, the period would end on the horn not zero on the clock, plus the .3 rule would not apply.

What happened? Shooting fouls occurred at the end of both the second and third periods with 0:00 on the clock, but no horn. The timer confirmed there were tenths left on the console in both cases, so we lined players up on the lane for the FTs. The times were 0.7 and 0.4 in the two cases.

I could be wrong, but I believe the period ends on the horn, not zero, whether the clock displays tenths or not. What's the rule on this?

ART. 2

Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal illuminates or sounds indicating time has expired, as in 1-14.

1-14
A red light behind each backboard or an LED light on each backboard is permitted to signal that time has expired for a quarter or extra period. In facilities without a red light behind or an LED light on each backboard, the audible timer's signal shall indicate that time has expired.

Like I thought. Thanks.

That is correct. The horn or light ends the period in HS.
We simply wanted to be clear to the coaches in case a stoppage occurred with under one second remaining, and sure enough...

So what are your thoughts on the situation of less than 0.3, and informing both coaches of that time? As long as you are consistent and fair, with this be a major issue rather than ignoring the 0.3 rule?

I would follow the rule. No tenths showing means that we don't use the rule.
One sure way to get yourself into trouble is to ignore a rule and instead do what you think is fair.

Thanks Nevaderef ...
 

I have yet to see an invisible clock at the scorers table. I've been able to see them all. ;)

It Was A Dark And Stormy Night ...
 

A-ha. The plot thickens.

Skip the next paragraph to avoid the backstory.

I have encountered this problem as both a student when I was playing and now as a scorekeeper or timer. I don't officiate but try to not be the ignorant person that most people seem to enjoy being when it comes to the rules, but I see a topic mentioned here I can help with. I noticed most (though there are probably plenty that are not) of these issues were using this controller, including the one at my school. So I went online and found the manual. I believe you can have the same problem on newer Fair-Play controllers, but the source of the problem is the same: people do not realize their scoreboard has a "jumping clock."

All of that backstop to say, people see the question "Jumping clock?" while programming the controller and think it doesn't sound like they have it and so they answer no. A jumping clock in scoreboard jargon is that the seconds "jump" to the minutes and the tenths appear in the seconds. So in the future you can also suggest they make sure the "jumping clock" is enabled.

That manual seems complicated. :) Back when I was in high school(years ago) my school got a new scoreboard when I was in 9th grade. Two people, myself and our varsity timer ended up knowing how to run the thing in its entirety so for every B squad game as well as junior high games when I was able too that year I ended up running the board. Jump forward three years when the school we paired with got a new scoreboard just like the one we had gotten. The night of the 1st home basketball game at their gym that year, I got the assignment of teaching the timer how to run the board. There however, was no jumping clock then as the only place that tenths of a second was used on the clock was in the NBA. And that was the 1st year that rule was in place.(I'm showing my age here by stating that) :)

In the context of basketball, a visible clock is one on which the time can be seen by the players and officials on the court while play is going on.

I've never seen a console at the table with a display big enough for that. ;)

After hearing about it but never seeing it, I was at a BV game last week where the shot clock went to zero as a ball went out on the baseline - but no horn. Defense wanted violation. Officials let offense inbound. Oddly, th defense, which had the three tallest kids on the court, let an offensive player run all alone into the center of the key for a lob he volleyballed in. (Also oddly, the horn didn't go off at all on the play... Making me wonder if there actually was some form of malfunction - since it benefitted the visitors, can rule out malfeascance....)