OOB rule clarification
 

Can a player save a ball fom going out of bounds, have their momentum carry them out and they come back in and be the 1st to touch the ball?

Can you direct me to the rule. I think you can.

This is a legal play. There's probably a case play about it. It has to do with player location. The player is inbounds if he's not touching out of bounds or airborne having last touched out of bounds. As far as first to touch after returning, there's no rule against it, therefore it is legal.

Legal in NFHS ... not so in NCAA if the player goes out of bounds under their own volition.

NFHS Caseplay

7.1.1 SITUATION D:

A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court. A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning inbounds; (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball; or (c) picks up the ball after returning to the court and then begins a dribble.

RULING: Legal in (a) and (b). Illegal in (c) as the controlled toss of the ball to the court by A1 constitutes the start of a dribble, dribbling a second time after picking up the ball is an illegal dribble violation. (4-15-5; 4-15-6d; 4-35; 9-5)

Thanks for finding the rule for me. I knew I had seen it, but it's a play you don't see very often. We had it tonight. I passed on the call and my partner called the violation.

It was a 3 person crew and both partners said I was wrong. It didn't think I was.

Thanks.

Email them the case play and brace yourself for the deafening sound of crickets.

By chance are your partners football officials?

1 yes. 1 no.

I did. It's just one of those things that happens rarely.

How is the underlined part relevant to the OP, in which the person asked if he saved the ball and momentum carried him out?

In fact, the rule for a person leaving the court on their own is more harsh in NFHS, a violation immediately, than in NCAA, not a violation unless the person is the first to touch the ball.

If momentum causes a player to go out of bounds, that player can be the first to touch it in NFHS and NCAAM. momentum is not considered "own volition" as used in NCAA rule. volition is to make a conscious choice. case play where A steps out of bounds to avoid contact. it isnt deceitful so not a class B tech, but he did make a choice to step out so he cannot be first to touch after he returns.

when momentum takes you out of bounds you are not making a choice--it is momentum doing it....

Agree.

Also, Terrapin, be aware of how the ball was saved. if the player grabs ball with one foot on ground, jumps off of it and is in air with both feet--momentum carrying him out of bounds--then throws it to court.....then lands out, comes back in, he cannot be the first to touch the ball. not because he isnt inbounds but because it would constitute a dribble with his pivot foot off the ground.

in the case book play pg cited the player first catches the ball while IN THE AIR. player has no pivot foot so he can be the first to come in and touch the ball after throwing it back into court. he has no pivot foot so starting dribble with a pivot foot off floor does not apply.....

Are you sure about that? When does a pivot foot (by rule) get established?

Can't a player who catches the ball in the above situation still legally land on both feet....and then start a dribble from that point? If they can do that, why can they not start a dribble after jumping and before landing?

I have a hard time reconciling case book 7.1.1.D (a) and (b) with Rule 9-3-1.

Rule 9-3-1 Note: "The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds."

Since the dribble started with the toss back to the court (as clearly stated in the case book ruling), by Rule 9-3-1, a violation has occurred as soon as dribbler A1 touches the ball upon reentry to the court (assuming, per the case play, that A1 is first to touch).

Gentlemen, your thoughts?

It's an interrupted dribble, meaning the player is not a dribbler when he lands out of bounds.

Other wise, any time a player saves the ball and goes out of bounds, you'd have to call OOB if the ball is bouncing in bounds.

you're right. i was thinking about the "lay up" type save where the guy is running and gets pivot foot then jumps off other leg etc. that certainly isn't what was typed and i didn't catch it when i re read it. I'm glad you did.

the player who gets ball with one leg on ground and jumps off of it into air hasn't established a pivot foot yet. one leg down isn't a pivot foot until the other lands after it. the restrictions in travel rule on starting dribble say "after coming to a stop and ESTABLISHING a pivot foot" player can't start dribble with it off floor. there's also one that says when player lands when neither foot can be a pivot he can't start dribble with either foot off floor. the player in the example can come back in and touch it because he had not established a pivot foot.

you correcting my screwup has me thinking--which is always dangerous. you pass me the ball and i catch it with both feet on floor or you pass to me in air with both off floor and i land with both on floor at same time. in both of those cases i have not ESTABLISHED a pivot foot yet but can if i choose to. if i then jump into air, both feet up at same time, and then, rather than shoot ball, i throw the ball to floor--and then hit it again--dribble---Legal? i never ESTABLISHED a pivot foot and it isn't a case where neither foot could have been a pivot. am i missing anything--any interp or something else obvious? just looking at the wording of the rule i'm now thinking that it would be legal. let me know what all think.

When a player jumps off both feet, "one" of them (as in the rule above) has been lifted and the other becomes the pivot foot...you can pick as it doesn't matter which one it is. As such, it is too late to start the dribble.

thx for replying. in my latest play i'm jumping- lifting both at same time. that happens a lot. one is not being lifted before the other. art 1 assumes one is lifted and the other is still in contact with floor. before i jump either is eligible to be the pivot but neither is ESTABLISHED as the pivot. when they both leave ground at same time i never ESTABLISHED the right or left as pivot foot. i hadn't really thought about it until now..

This is a "loophole" of sorts, not allowed. Camron's point is that you should, in this case, consider one or both of the feet to be the pivot for purposes of the traveling rule.

wheels churning more..i think i can read language of art 2a1 to mean that the player who lands simultaneously has established A "pivot foot" even though we don't know yet if it is right or left foot...

Not really...but I'm not sure that it would lead to any practical difference.

When 1 is lifted, the other becomes the pivot foot. When 2 are lifted, 1 is also lifted creating a pivot foot. Can't tell which came up first, pick one. It will not matter which you pick since it is traveling for either foot to come down before releasing the ball on a try/pass.

Sort of like the trick trivia questions: How many months have 28 days? Answer: All of them have 28 days....some a a few more too.

i get the 28 days one. i dont get the "when 2 are lifted, 1 is also lifted CREATING a pivot foot." i think players can and do leave floor with both feet simultaneously. if 1 is lifted the other is the pivot only because it, the other, remains in contact with floor longer. when they both go up at same time i dont see that action itself creating a pivot foot....

You're missing the point. When they jump off of both feet is one of the feet off the floor? Yes it is. If one foot is off the floor, the other is the pivot foot. Nothing says the pivot foot also has to be on the floor....they can lift it too.

If they both go up at the same time, it doesn't matter any more. The opportunity to have a pivot foot is gone. If you're asking if he can start a dribble in this case since a pivot foot had not been established, the answer is no.

well, that's an understatment....at least i know what you are saying now....

the rule says you cant start a dribble with your pivot foot off the floor. if you never establish a pivot foot then you arent starting a dribble with a pivot foot off the floor.

Cameron and i are discussing what actions establish a pivot foot under travel rules...

It also says when neither foot can be a pivot, neither foot may be lifted before starting a dribble.

in the play we have been talking about the player catches the ball with both feet off floor and lands on both simultaneously. either foot can be a pivot.

the rule you are citing now deals with after i catch ball with one foot on floor, jump off that foot and land simultaneously on 2 feet. neither can be a pivot in that situation. if i dribble i have to release it before lifting either foot.