Technical fouls to start the game
 

Can someone help me with this case play? 6.4.1 SITUATION A:

Twelve minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks the ball and is charged with a technical foul. B1 is discovered to be wearing an illegal jersey, as the players prepare for the start of the game.

RULING: The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1's technical foul. Team A will then be given two free throws and the ball for a *division-line throw-in for B1's infraction. When the thrower of Team A has the ball for the throw-in, they have control for purposes of establishing the procedure and the arrow is immediately set toward B's basket. Team B will have the first *opportunity for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-3)

Why does one penalty trump the other? Does one type of technical foul take precedence over the other? In this case play is it just order of discovery that is penalized? thanks

It's not a matter of precedence. NFHS rules dictate that all penalties are administered in the order of foul occurrence. In the case cited, the reader should assume they occurred as written..A's dunk first followed by discovery of the illegal uniform.

If ti had been a double T, then they would "offset" and no FTs would be shot. The game would start with the jump ball.

This was a false double T.

Illegal Number ...
 

At the twelve minute mark, couldn't the coach of Team B choose not to play B1, thus avoiding a technical foul?

Also, let's say that B1 is a designated starter, and it's the nine minute mark. What are the possible outcomes here?

and remember, that A1's pregame dunk is charged to him and indirectly to the head coach since A1 was bench personnel. One foul is added to A team foul total. The illegal uniform T is charged directly to head coach of team B. the player is not charged with a foul. a foul is added to team total.

coaches have lost coaching box w exceptions since each has been charged with a T. see the rule for when they can stand after losing box---call TO, check on correctable error, etc..

1. yes. T is for allowing him to participate.
2. ---rule says you can change designated starter for illegal equipment or apparel, "etc"....... it actually says ETC. :eek: if he is a starter coach is going to want him to play so there is going to be a T at some point. coach be better off changing his number in book to legal shirt. that is team technical so coach keeps box...

How would you signal the T for the pregame dunking? Do you sound the whistle with the "t" signal? I have never seen that situation called. Just curious.

No, inform both coaches and the table and start the game with the FT's. No signal necessary.

Year Of The Cat, Al Stewart, 1976 ...
 

That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming.

The Stars At Night Are Big And Bright ...
 

I believe our fine officiating colleagues in The Lone Star State prevent pregame dunking technicals by sounding their whistles before they enter the court. I wonder if they do it in unison, concurrently, or consecutively?

NFHS has always been order of occurrence, so that's your answer.
The problem is that someone from the NFHS wrote a case play a couple of years ago which conflicts with the text of the rules and 6.4.1 Sit A. That case play is 3.4.3 Situation C and it states to treat any technical fouls by opposing teams prior to the start of the game as offsetting double fouls.
There is no way to resolve these conflicting rulings. Therefore, I will be going with the text of the actual rule and enforcing the penalties in the order in which they occur if such ever happens to me.

Usually just the R sounds the whistle and while it is recommended, I choose not to for middle school, 9th grade and most girls games. It is a penalty to dunknif the refs are present on the court - the whistle is just a courtesy warning. I'm sure eventually the rest of the country will catch up to us and add this to their pre-game.

Nah, the rest of the country teaches their kids not to dunk during warmups. No need for the refs to announce our presence.

Y'all have been doing this long enough, if the rest of the country was going to follow suit, it would have happened already.

I think the refs should enter to this tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7JmKW8xhrg

NevadaRef and I agree on this situation with regard to NFHS CB Play 6.4.1 Sit. A and NFHS CB Play 3.4.3. Sit. C. CB Play 3.4.3. Sit. C was added to the 2013-14 NFHS Casebook. The sad part of the RULING for CB Play 3.4.3 Sit. C is that it references CP Play 6.4.1 Sit. A to support its Ruling. I thought that the NFHS Rules Committee would have cleaned up this mess before the start of the 2014-15 season and correct the RULLING in CB Play 3.4.3 Sit. C to conform to CB Play 6.4.1 Sit. A.

MTD, Sr.

3.4.3 deals with TEAM technical fouls. that is the difference in the plays. the only team technical fouls occuring before game listed in first part of rule 10. case play cites 10-1-2. in the 3.4.3 play both teams are changing numbers in book. TEAM technicals. Player and coaches charged in 6.4.1. pregame dunk and an illegal uniform. i assume since team techs arent deemed serious enough to charge a player or a coach they want them to be a wash before game.

The fact that the TFs are charged to the Team and not to a Player is not germane to the discussion. As far as the NFHS is concerned a foul is a foul is a foul. Therefore the CB Play3.4.3 Sit. C RULING is not correct by rule.

MTD, Sr.

that is a clear difference in the plays. it is certainly germane to the discussion. it may not matter in the end but im not ready to write it off yet. do you have the "order of occurrence" cites handy? i know one of them says personal fouls and technical fouls penalized in order of occurrence. i cant remember the number. i know in rule 4 it defines "foul" and lists various types, including technical. But "team technical" isnt listed there. it is only defined in rule 10.

i'd like to see more before saying 3.4.3 C is flat out wrong. if you have time. thx

I agree with the poor wording, but would apply it only to the administrative-type technical fouls.

Coach is seat belted
 

They don't mention the coach no longer is entitled to the box after a player by his team dunks but the book T does not cost the coach the box.

Big Cat:

Let us look at the following play: Both Team A and Team B dress ten players but only list eight names on their respective Team Rosters at the Ten Minute Mark. Team B has control of the Ball early in the fourth quarter. B1 passes the ball toward B2; the pass is not very accurate and in a failed attempt to keep the Ball from going Out-of-Bounds, B2 is injured and cannot continue to Play. HC-B decides to replace B2 with B9 who is not listed in the Scorebook. Team B is charged with a TF for adding a player to its roster. After B9 has entered the game but before any player from Team A attempts the first FT from Team B's TF, Team A requests and is granted a TO. HC-A sends A10 to the Scorer to report into the game before the TO Warning Buzzer to attempt the FTs. Team A is charged with a TF for adding a player to its roster. The result is that this is a FDF and Team A will attempt its FTs because of Team B's TF and then Team B will attempt its FTs because of Team A's TF; Team B will then be awarded a throw-in at the division line opposite the S/T Table.

The foul sequence in the play in the previous paragraph occured in the same Stopped Clock Dead Ball Period. The foul sequence in CB Play 3.4.3. Sit. C occured in the same Stopped Clock Dead Ball Period.

The RULING in CB Play 3.4.3. Sit. C is defended in the COMMENT of the CB Play which states: "When each team is assessed one technical foul prior to the game, a double technical foul has occurred, as this is considered “approximately the same time”." Based upon the Rules it is a complete fallacy that the two TFs are DTFs. No where in the Rules will anyone find such support for the DTF conclusion stated in the COMMENT.

What is more puzzling is that CB Play 3.4.3 Sit. C references CB Play 6.4.1. Sit. A, which specifically states that the foul sequence is a FDF.

I do not have a problem if the Rules Committee wants TFs committed by each team during the Pre-Game Dead Ball Period to offset, one-for-one, but the Rules Committee must first change the Rules. The Rules Committee cannot just write a RULING that cannot be supported by the Rules and wish (upon a star) for it to be correct. The RULING and COMMENT in CB Play 3.4.3 Sit. C is sheer nonsense; it is not supported by Rule and none of the Rules listed support the RULLING and COMMENT.

"Approximately at the same time" means just that, not that the Fouls occured during the same Stop Clock Dead Ball Period.

MTD, Sr.

A player who dunks the ball during the Pre-game Stopped Clock Period is considered Bench Personnel and therefore his HC is most certainly get charged with an IDTF and lose his Coaching Box for the game.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, my thoughts below
I agree with you and many others that it would be best if the NFHS would have everything that affects playing of game in the rules, in order, concise etc. I think Billy mentioned the other day the person who becomes an official this year will have no idea about the elbow rule etc. The rules, case book, points of emphasis etc could be reviewed every few years and codified in one place.

However, the NFHS is, as you know, the governing body. It is in charge of the rules and the case book. it has declared in the case book that it, the Case Book, has been "designated an official supplement to the rules....it is approved and official." Again, id like to see things laid out in rule book but the NFHS, imo, certainly has the authority to expand or even create rules via the case book. not unlike a lot of law in society. much of it comes through case decisions. some of it through statutes..(note-state associations can modify rules etc if they choose)

In 3.4.3C NFHS is taking the fact situation presented and telling us what they want. there is no doubt that they are taking the phrase "approximately the same time" in 4-19-8b and expanding its natural meaning under certain circumstances before the game starts. if each team commits a 10-1-2 team technical, before the game starts, they are deemed to occur at approximately the same time---even if one happens at 9 minute mark and other at 2 minute mark. obviously, this goes against every notion we have about what "approximately the same time" means, and they lose credibility by saying it this way...but it is their rules and case book so if they want to define that phrase, that way, i think they can do it. (its in and has been in case book so they obviously have...) It's a fiction created to reach a certain result they want.

They would be much better off being more direct and saying, in the rules, something like 10-1-2 team technicals committed prior to start of game offset...

Finally, there is a separate reference to 6.4.1 Sit A. it says "See" that play. i think they just want you to look at that play and see the differences in the two plays.
Again, it would certainly be best to have everything codified. things could be made much clearer. it shouldnt be this hard to figure out...thx

Everything old is new again!
 

Quoting Liza Minelli’s late first husband, Peter Allen: EVERYTHING OLD IS NEW AGAIN! Please read the last paragraph of me Comment #25 (on Page 2) in the thread: https://forum.officiating.com/basket...changes-2.html.

When the “Dunking a Dead Ball Rule” was amended by the NBC for the 1971-72 school year, the TF was not charged to the “Dunker” but was charged as an Administrative Technical Foul. I am not going to climb into the my attic to go through file boxes to see when the TF was changed from and Administrative TF to a TF charged directly to the Dunker which made for an interesting discussion during last week of December 2014 in the following thread from the last week of December 2014 (titled: Technical fouls to start the game), paying close attention to NevadaRef’s Comment #11 and my Comment #15 (both on Page 1): https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tart-game.html due to the addition in the 2013-14 NFHS Basketball Casebook of CB Play 3.4.3 Sit. C and its RULING which seemed to contradict the RULING of already existing CB Play 6.4.1 Sit. A.

None-the-less, we can see from the new Rules Changes for 2024-25 (shown below) that the NFHS Rules, in one aspect, have reverted to the 1971-72 amendment.

10-1-1 PENALTY, 10-1-2 PENALTY, 10-2-7 PENALTY (NEW), 10-5-1 PENALTY(NEW): Establishes that all administrative, team and bench technical fouls that occur during pregame offset – no free throws are awarded – and the game will start with a jump ball and the head coach does not lose the privilege of the coaching box.
Rationale: Clarifies that an equal number of technical fouls committed by both teams during pregame offset and establishes how the game will start after offsetting technical fouls.

10-2-7 (NEW), 10-5-1i: Changes the penalty for dunking or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball from a bench technical to a team technical. Rationale: Continues to penalize the offending team with a team technical foul (free-throws, offended team the ball to start the period, a foul added to the team count), but no longer requires the coach to lose the coaching box to start the game and no personal foul is awarded.

MTD, Sr.

To Quote Yogi Berra ...
 

Or, If You Prefer ...
 

Or just call over the closest player or AC tell them to stay off the rim.

Blowing the whistle is unnecessary attention.

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